[MD] Fictitious self

[David M]

Hi Ian

I make that 15 all.

DM


> Hey Marsha,
> ... now who's avoiding the excluded middle :-)
> Ian
>
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 8:58 AM, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:
>> At 08:40 AM 9/14/2008, you wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes I think it it does Marsha,
>>> ... and maybe it illustrates that a period in this "fictitious self"
>>> was and is beneficial ... to the more immediate breathing self ?
>>> Ian
>>
>> Yes, no, and all of the above...   - Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 2:52 AM, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Greetings,
>>> >
>>> > Hmmmm.  How to make the point.
>>> >
>>> > I have, for the past 30-hours-plus, been walking the 'fictitious-self'
>>> > talk.
>>> >  All associated analogy and opinion regarding this discussion have 
>>> > long
>>> > ago
>>> > moved out to sea and lost relevance.  We may now breathe fresh air.
>>> >  Being
>>> > is again filled with joy at rediscovering this simple truth: arising,
>>> > falling, arising, falling, arising, falling, ...
>>> >
>>> > Does this explain?
>>> >
>>> > Marsha
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > At 02:54 PM 9/12/2008, eye wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Arlo,
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm going to have to interrupt this process for a little while.  I'll
>>> >> be
>>> >> back Sunday morning.
>>> >>
>>> >> Marsha
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> At 02:39 PM 9/12/2008, you wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Marsha]
>>> >>> The self is an ever-changing, collection of overlapping, 
>>> >>> interrelated,
>>> >>> inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, static patterns of
>>> >>> value.
>>> >>>  It is not a thing.  It is a process.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Arlo]
>>> >>> Yeah, you keep saying "process", as if that contradicts "plurality".
>>> >>> Yes,
>>> >>> the "self" is a process, but a process that is dependent on context.
>>> >>> Illusions of continuity across time and context with regard to these
>>> >>> processes are just illusions. No "one" process is more "real" than 
>>> >>> any
>>> >>> other. What part of this do you disagree with? Process, illusion,
>>> >>> fiction,
>>> >>> mask, face, avatar, call it whatever you want. There is "no one real
>>> >>> Arlo"
>>> >>> that sits behind them, they are the only "reality" there is.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Marsha]
>>> >>> Who is to say what is irrelevant?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Arlo]
>>> >>> I am. You are. We each decide what is relevant in our activities. If
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> shape of my body is relevant to you, so be it. But I say to try to
>>> >>> point to
>>> >>> a "real Arlo" by pointing to a physical form is to not point to "me"
>>> >>> at all.
>>> >>> I've asked you why this stuff is important to you, and you've not
>>> >>> answered.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I've said repeatedly, the form of your body has no relevance to me 
>>> >>> as
>>> >>> to
>>> >>> whether "Marsha" is a woman. "Marsha" is, for me, a woman regardless
>>> >>> of the
>>> >>> shape of the body she inhabits. That is, I suppose our core
>>> >>> disagreement
>>> >>> here, you would feel "deceived" to learn my body is shaped like a
>>> >>> woman's if
>>> >>> you thought "Arlo" was a man.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> My question to you, over and over, has been "why?" Why does this 
>>> >>> have
>>> >>> value to you? Why could "Arlo" just be who "Arlo" is regardless of 
>>> >>> his
>>> >>> physical form? And you can substitute in any "thing I should be 
>>> >>> honest
>>> >>> about" in here to replace gender. Why could "Arlo" just be who 
>>> >>> "Arlo"
>>> >>> is
>>> >>> here regardless of whether my body's legal documention says my name 
>>> >>> is
>>> >>> "Harvey" or "Jane"?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Marsha]
>>> >>> Now you're being silly.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Arlo]
>>> >>> Am I? Prove to everyone you are not a variation of me. Prove them in 
>>> >>> a
>>> >>> way that I could not deceive them with actors and reroutes and
>>> >>> allusions to
>>> >>> other "variations" (such as Horse). But they buy the illusion 
>>> >>> because
>>> >>> it has
>>> >>> value for them. As it should be.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Marsha]
>>> >>> Right.  You and Zeus are going to tell me what is a mistake. 
>>> >>> There's
>>> >>> not
>>> >>> a bunny's butt chance that's going to happen.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Arlo]
>>> >>> Yeah, much better you tell "Arlo" what color he is by looking at his
>>> >>> physiological body. There's not a bunny's butt chance that's going 
>>> >>> to
>>> >>> happen. The color of my skin has nothing whatsoever to do with color
>>> >>> of my
>>> >>> self. And for you to say otherwise if quite arrogant, isn't it?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> You see, if you told me that "Marsha is green", then that is what
>>> >>> Marsha
>>> >>> would be. If I later found out the color of your physiological host 
>>> >>> is
>>> >>> purple, it wouldn't matter one whit to me. "Marsha" would still be
>>> >>> green.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Again, that's where we differ I suppose. I don't rely on physical
>>> >>> devices
>>> >>> to pigeon-hole identities onto people. I rely on what they say, what
>>> >>> they
>>> >>> tell me they are, who they present themselves to me as.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Marsha]
>>> >>> An "average" person is a good-hearted, hard-working average citizen.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Arlo]
>>> >>> Really? So when you said, "I don't know how many average people 
>>> >>> would
>>> >>> actually agree with what you described", what you MEANT was "I don't
>>> >>> know
>>> >>> how many good-hearted, hard-working citizens would actually agree 
>>> >>> with
>>> >>> what
>>> >>> you described".
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Tell me, would they disagree because they are good-hearted or
>>> >>> hard-working?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Marsha]
>>> >>> I do not recognized your interpretation of my opening comment.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Arlo]
>>> >>> Really? You see no disagreement between these two statements of 
>>> >>> yours?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> (1) "Either way 'continuity across time' and 'continuity across
>>> >>> context'
>>> >>> is illusion."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> (2) To me a self is not one and not many
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Now if (2) actually said, "I place great value on the illusions of
>>> >>> continuity across time and context", we may be in some agreement. 
>>> >>> And
>>> >>> I
>>> >>> could see why you'd want to move away from considering selves as a
>>> >>> multiplicity, it threatens this illusion.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Marsha]
>>> >>> Or maybe you mistake quantity of words for quality of thought.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Arlo]
>>> >>> Maybe. Or maybe you mistake anti-intellectualism for wisdom. We 
>>> >>> could
>>> >>> go
>>> >>> around like this for eternity, Marsha. Wouldn't it be better for you
>>> >>> to try
>>> >>> to articulate an argument than pull plays from Platt's Playbook?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Marsha]
>>> >>> Huh!  Want to untangle this paragraph?  What exactly do you deny?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Arlo]
>>> >>> Sure.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Well this is my point. These things are not "real", just social
>>> >>> conventions. There is no "self" that exists across contexts. But we
>>> >>> structure our activity that way for social reasons. Culture sees
>>> >>> "body, mind
>>> >>> and soul" as fixed, connected and continuous over time and 
>>> >>> place...."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Culture tells us that "we" are "one body, one mind, one soul" 
>>> >>> united.
>>> >>> We
>>> >>> have come to this view because we have learned to value the rewards
>>> >>> continuity brings.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "Seen this way, there is one real "Arlo", who's "honest" reality is
>>> >>> bound
>>> >>> to his physiological form, and who may "pretend" to be other people
>>> >>> but is
>>> >>> really the same old Arlo...."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Using the predominant glasses of this culture, we "see" that there 
>>> >>> is
>>> >>> "one Arlo", who is bound to his body, who is a "real self" behind 
>>> >>> all
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> masks he may pretend to wear.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> "I deny this view, and indeed I find it horribly problematic when 
>>> >>> you
>>> >>> really examine it."
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This whole thread was examining questions that challenge this view.
>>> >>> But
>>> >>> since you dismiss every question as one you don't care about, I 
>>> >>> guess
>>> >>> its
>>> >>> impossible to argue with an ostrich. I think if you really took the
>>> >>> time to
>>> >>> answer the questions I've asked, you'd see that this view is grossly
>>> >>> problematic.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> So I restate. Consider this view as it would make us "see" Mark.
>>> >>> Culture
>>> >>> would tell us there is "one person here", his name is Mark, and he 
>>> >>> is
>>> >>> a boy.
>>> >>> Period. End of story. "Julia" is simply a "mask Mark wears", a
>>> >>> "pretend
>>> >>> avatar" the real Mark uses to cope with psychological problems.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I say, no. These glasses are no longer good. They no longer serve 
>>> >>> us.
>>> >>> The
>>> >>> "real person" here is Julia. And she is a girl. A girl that was 
>>> >>> given
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> name "Mark" by a culture that ties gender to bodily form.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Can you see the difference? Which do you agree with? If neither, 
>>> >>> then
>>> >>> what do your glasses see, Marsha?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I also say, if "Julia" has other selves in other contexts, maybe she
>>> >>> continues to be "Mark" in some contexts, then BOTH of these people 
>>> >>> are
>>> >>> equally real. Neither is more real, or less real, than the other.
>>> >>> Julia is
>>> >>> still a girl, and Mark is still a boy, the gender of these selves is
>>> >>> NOT
>>> >>> based on the body, but on the social-presentation in the moment.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Marsha]
>>> >>> I cling to many illusions.  They keep me floating and out of a
>>> >>> sanitarium.  Doesn't mean I believe them.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Arlo]
>>> >>> Why anyone would cling to things they do not believe is beyond me. 
>>> >>> But
>>> >>> if
>>> >>> you say this is how it is for you, I guess that's how it is.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Marsha]
>>> >>> But I still, in conventional conversation, expect honesty.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Arlo]
>>> >>> What you expect is for others to conform their behavior to your
>>> >>> illusions. If your illusion makes me a man because my body has male
>>> >>> parts,
>>> >>> then I better act like a man and not a woman, isn't that right? Or 
>>> >>> at
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> very least tell you "I'm really a man who is just acting like a
>>> >>> woman". That
>>> >>> would be your definition of "honesty", no?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Marsha]
>>> >>> And if I don't get it, I might think you are lacking arete.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [Arlo]
>>> >>> You wouldn't be the only one.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
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>>> >>
>>> >> .
>>> >> .
>>> >>
>>> >> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the
>>> >> stars.........
>>> >> .
>>> >> .
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>>> > .
>>> > .
>>> >
>>> > Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the
>>> > stars.........
>>> > .
>>> > .
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>>
>> .
>> .
>>
>> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the 
>> stars.........
>> .
>> .
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