[MD] Daffodils: a religion of experience.

Sat Apr 11 06:31:57 PDT 2009

Ron,

Useful to?????????   Alpha dog?

Does anybody understand that nobody holds a pattern they believe to 
be untrue?   It is not possible.  Isn't that extraordinary?

Do you disagree with this?

Marsha

At 08:36 AM 4/11/2009, you wrote:
>Marsha,
>some might say that truth is useful meaning.
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
>To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 4:12:16 AM
>Subject: Re: [MD] Daffodils: a religion of experience.
>
>
>Will,
>
>Do you think there is a primary societal division between the
>intellectuals and the masses?
>
>By the way, what the heck is the 'truth'?  The way I interpret Lila
>in Chapter 14, individuals only hold patterns they consider truth, no
>one holds a pattern they consider false.  What then is truth?  If a
>pattern is repeated 10,000 times as opposed to 9 times is it more
>true?  Is truth relationship?  Does truth flash in and out of
>existence like some subatomic particle?  Do the intellectuals hold
>the truth?  Do the masses hold the truth?
>
>What was Huxley's mind like?
>
>
>Marsha
>
>
>
>
>At 01:33 AM 4/11/2009, you wrote:
> >Hi KO,
> >
> >It's always easy to find controversy in the spiritual teachers.  They are
> >obviously fringe, and dealt with in that way.  However, the teachings
> >can always be separated from the person.  Perhaps they are able to
> >grasp concepts of group consciousness, and act just as a medium.  This
> >is not to say that deceit does not exist in this sector.  I have 
> "Krishnamurti
> >to Himself - His last Journal", which he recorded at Pine
> >Cottage.  I sometimes  read
> >it randomly to give me something to think about as I fall asleep.
> >
> >The only book I don't like of Huxley's is the Doors of 
> Perception.  I think he
> >made a little bit too much of his trips.  But with a mind like his,
> >I guess that is
> >what happens.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Willblake2
> >
> >
> >On Apr 10, 2009, at 7:03:49 AM, "kieffer odigaunt"
> ><kieffer.odigaunt at googlemail.com> wrote:
> >Hi Marsha and Will,
> >
> >Krishnamurti's ideas have always appealed to me because of his lack of dogma
> >and totally pragmatic approach. As part of his call for the individual to
> >take responsibility ('You are the World') he many times talked about the
> >possibility that the very structure of the brain can change. I am reading a
> >book lately:- The Brain that Changes Itself - about recent advances in
> >Neuro-plasticity; it seems Krishnamurti was right and it adds gives more
> >credibility to the transformational 'Process' as he called it that he
> >underwent at Ojai. Perhaps he had found a way to apprehend dynamic quality
> >more clearly than the rest of us.
> >
> >His affair with the wife of his editorial manager 'Lives in the Shadow With
> >J Krishnamurti' written by her daughter, although very controversial in no
> >way detracts from the importance of what Krishnamurti advised.
> >
> >Aldous Huxley (along with John Dewey) was another famous pupil of
> >F.M.Alexander and even based one of the characters of his novel 'Eyeless in
> >Gaza' on Alexander. Huxley died from cancer of the tongue whilst under the
> >effects of LSD.
> >
> >-KO
> >
> >2009/4/10 MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> >
> > >
> > > Greetings Will,
> > >
> > > I've been to Ojai many times, and can close my eyes and picture the ride
> > > there. Beautiful! You don't own the yard with the mower as lawn ornament,
> > > do you?
> > >
> > > The topic of Krishnamurit's life has come up before. I read a biography a
> > > very long time ago. Someone in this forum mentioned he was 
> having an affair
> > > with his brother's wife. I do not care to make any judgements on his
> > > character. I saw him speak in an auditorium at Madison Square 
> Garden. When
> > > he finished speaking he just got up and left the stage. It was very
> > > strange. I read 'Think On These Things' many, many years ago, 
> It might have
> > > been my first reading of a metaphysical type, and have been curious to
> > > reread it. Also I want to read the dialogues between he and 
> David Bohm as a
> > > way to acquaint myself with David Bohm.
> > >
> > > After listening to the In Our Times, 'Brave New World', and hearing the
> > > discussion concerning Aldus Huxley, I'd have to say he was just another
> > > brujo. It was a depressing IOT program.
> > >
> > >
> > > Marsha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 12:22 AM 4/10/2009, you wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Marsha,
> > >>
> > >> If you want to get a historical perspective on Krishnamurti, and how he
> > >> was brought up through the religion of theosophy, read "Madam
> > >> Blavatsky's Baboon". It is an enjoyable read although somewhat
> > >> biased. Oh, and Aldus Huxley hung out a little with 
> Krishnamurti, here in
> > >> Ojai, near where I live.
> > >>
> > >> Willblake2
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Apr 8, 2009, at 3:34:46 AM, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060916095
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Krishnamurti:
> > >>
> > >> Would you like to discuss with you the problem of freedom. It
> > >> is a very complex problem, needing deep study and understanding. We
> > >> hear much talk about freedom, religious freedom, and the freedom to
> > >> do what one would like to do. Volumes have been written on all this
> > >> by scholars. But I think we can approach it very simply and directly,
> > >> and perhaps that will bring us to the real solution.
> > >>
> > >> I wonder if you have ever stopped to observe the marvellous
> > >> glow in the west as the sun sets, with the shy young moon just over
> > >> the trees? Often at that hour the river is very calm, and then
> > >> everything is reflected on its surface: the bridge, the train that
> > >> goes over it, the tender moon, and presently, as it grows dark, the
> > >> stars. It is all very beautiful. And to observe, to watch, to give
> > >> your whole attention to something beautiful, your mind must be free
> > >> of preoccupations, must it not? It must not be occupied with
> > >> problems, with worries, with speculations. It is only when the mind
> > >> is very quiet that you can really observe, for then the mind is
> > >> sensitive to extraordinary beauty; and perhaps here is a clue to our
> > >> problem of freedom.
> > >>
> > >> Now, what does it mean to be free? Is freedom a matter of doing
> > >> what happens to suit you, going where you like, thinking what you
> > >> will? This you do anyhow. Merely to have independence, does that mean
> > >> freedom? Many people in the world are independent, but very few are
> > >> free. Freedom implies great intelligence, does it not? To be free is
> > >> to be intelligent, but intelligence does not come into being by just
> > >> wishing to be free; it comes into being only when you begin to
> > >> understand your whole environment, the social, religious, parental
> > >> and traditional influences that are continually closing in on you.
> > >> But to understand the various influences - the influence of your
> > >> parents, of your government, of society, of the culture to which you
> > >> belong, of your beliefs, your gods and superstitions, of the
> > >> tradition to which you conform unthinkingly - to understand all these
> > >> and become free from them requires deep insight; but you generally
> > >> give in to them because inwardly you are frightened. You are afraid
> > >> of not having a good position in life; you are afraid of what your
> > >> priest will say; you are afraid of not following tradition, of not
> > >> doing the right thing. But freedom is really a state of mind in which
> > >> there is no fear or compulsion, no urge to be secure.
> > >>
> > >> Don't most of us want to be safe? Don't we want to be told what
> > >> marvellous people we are, how lovely we look, or what extraordinary
> > >> intelligence we have? Otherwise we would not put letters after our
> > >> names. All that kind of thing gives us self-assurance, a sense of
> > >> importance. We all want to be famous people - and the moment we want
> > >> to be something, we are no longer free.
> > >>
> > >> Please see this, for it is the real clue to the understanding
> > >> of the problem of freedom. Whether in this world of politicians,
> > >> power, position and authority, or in the so-called spiritual world
> > >> where you aspire to be virtuous, noble, saintly, the moment you want
> > >> to be somebody you are no longer free. But the man or the woman who
> > >> sees the absurdity of all these things and whose heart is therefore
> > >> innocent, and therefore not moved by the desire to be somebody - such
> > >> a person is free. If you understand the simplicity of it you will
> > >> also see its extraordinary beauty and depth.
> > >>
> > >> After all, examinations are for that purpose: to give you a
> > >> position, to make you somebody. Titles, position and knowledge
> > >> encourage you to be something. Have you not noticed that your parents
> > >> and teachers tell you that you must amount to something in life, that
> > >> you must be successful like your uncle or your grandfather? Or you
> > >> try to imitate the example of some hero, to be like the Masters, the
> > >> saints; so you are never free. Whether you follow the example of a
> > >> Master, a saint, a teacher, a relative, or stick to a particular
> > >> tradition, it all implies a demand on your part to be something; and
> > >> it is only when you really understand this fact that there is freedom..
> > >>
> > >> The function of education, then, is to help you from childhood
> > >> not to imitate anybody, but to be yourself all the time. And this is
> > >> a most difficult thing to do: whether you are ugly or beautiful,
> > >> whether you are envious or jealous, always to be what you are, but
> > >> understand it. To be yourself is very difficult, because you think
> > >> that what you are is ignoble, and that if you could only change what
> > >> you are into something noble it would be marvellous; but that never
> > >> happens. Whereas, if you look at what you actually are and understand
> > >> it, then in that very understanding there is a transformation. So
> > >> freedom lies, not in trying to become something different, nor in
> > >> doing whatever you happen to feel like doing, nor in following the
> > >> authority of tradition, of your parents, of your guru, but in
> > >> understanding what you are from moment to moment.
> > >>
> > >> You see, you are not educated for this; your education
> > >> encourages you to become something or other - but that is not the
> > >> understanding of yourself. Your `self' is a very complex thing; it is
> > >> not merely the entity that goes to school, that quarrels, that plays
> > >> games, that is afraid, but it is also something hidden, not obvious.
> > >> It is made up, not only of all the thoughts that you think, but also
> > >> of all the things that have been put into your mind by other people,
> > >> by books, by the newspapers, by your leaders; and it is possible to
> > >> understand all that only when you don't want to be somebody, when you
> > >> don't imitate, when you don't follow - which means, really, when you
> > >> are in revolt against the whole tradition of trying to become
> > >> something. That is the only true revolution, leading to extraordinary
> > >> freedom. To cultivate this freedom is the real function of education.
> > >>
> > >> Your parents, your teachers and your own desires want you to be
> > >> identified with something or other in order to be happy, secure. But
> > >> to be intelligent, must you not break through all the influences that
> > >> enslave and crush you?
> > >>
> > >> The hope of a new world is in those of you who begin to see
> > >> what is false and revolt against it, not just verbally but actually.
> > >> And that is why you should seek the right kind of education; for it
> > >> is only when you grow in freedom that you can create a new world not
> > >> based on tradition or shaped according to the idiosyncrasy of some
> > >> philosopher or idealist. But there can be no freedom as long as you
> > >> are merely trying to become somebody, or imitate a noble example.
> > >> (TOTT, pp.12-15)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ..
> > >> _____________
> > >>
> > >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the
> > >> stars...........
> > >> ..
> > >> ..
> > >>
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> > >>
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> > >>
> > >
> > > .
> > > _____________
> > >
> > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the 
> stars..........
> > > .
> > > .
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>.
>_____________
>
>Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
>.
>.
>
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.
_____________

Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
. 