[MD] Daffodils: a religion of experience.

MarshaV marshalz at charter.net
Mon Apr 13 01:29:04 PDT 2009 

KO,

What do you think?


m


At 04:13 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote:

>Hello KO,
>
>
>Well, wanting a cigarette is sometimes still an experience for 
>me.  I've actually thought of getting a dozen cartons and seeing if 
>I could smoke every cigarette within twenty-four hours.  But I I 
>haven't yet.   I stopped smoking because I thought a full breath was 
>more fun than a labored breath.  (I live in a stairmaster.)  That 
>seemed true at the time, but...   Also, I live alone, so there was 
>no one I would be in danger of killing.
>
>All these static patterns of value are true.  Unless, of course, one 
>has discovered they are all false.
>
>
>Marsha
>
>
>
>At 03:55 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote:
>>Hi Marsha,
>>
>>what about someone who has the pattern of smoking; they enjoy the taste but
>>know that it is bad for them.
>>Can such addictive patterns be true too?
>>
>>-KO
>>
>>2009/4/11 MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
>>
>> >
>> > Ron,
>> >
>> > Useful to?????????   Alpha dog?
>> >
>> > Does anybody understand that nobody holds a pattern they believe to be
>> > untrue?   It is not possible.  Isn't that extraordinary?
>> >
>> > Do you disagree with this?
>> >
>> >
>> > Marsha
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > At 08:36 AM 4/11/2009, you wrote:
>> >
>> >> Marsha,
>> >> some might say that truth is useful meaning.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ________________________________
>> >> From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
>> >> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> >> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 4:12:16 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [MD] Daffodils: a religion of experience.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Will,
>> >>
>> >> Do you think there is a primary societal division between the
>> >> intellectuals and the masses?
>> >>
>> >> By the way, what the heck is the 'truth'?  The way I interpret Lila
>> >> in Chapter 14, individuals only hold patterns they consider truth, no
>> >> one holds a pattern they consider false.  What then is truth?  If a
>> >> pattern is repeated 10,000 times as opposed to 9 times is it more
>> >> true?  Is truth relationship?  Does truth flash in and out of
>> >> existence like some subatomic particle?  Do the intellectuals hold
>> >> the truth?  Do the masses hold the truth?
>> >>
>> >> What was Huxley's mind like?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Marsha
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> At 01:33 AM 4/11/2009, you wrote:
>> >> >Hi KO,
>> >> >
>> >> >It's always easy to find controversy in the spiritual 
>> teachers.  They are
>> >> >obviously fringe, and dealt with in that way.  However, the teachings
>> >> >can always be separated from the person.  Perhaps they are able to
>> >> >grasp concepts of group consciousness, and act just as a medium.  This
>> >> >is not to say that deceit does not exist in this sector.  I have
>> >> "Krishnamurti
>> >> >to Himself - His last Journal", which he recorded at Pine
>> >> >Cottage.  I sometimes  read
>> >> >it randomly to give me something to think about as I fall asleep.
>> >> >
>> >> >The only book I don't like of Huxley's is the Doors of Perception.  I
>> >> think he
>> >> >made a little bit too much of his trips.  But with a mind like his,
>> >> >I guess that is
>> >> >what happens.
>> >> >
>> >> >Cheers,
>> >> >Willblake2
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >On Apr 10, 2009, at 7:03:49 AM, "kieffer odigaunt"
>> >> ><kieffer.odigaunt at googlemail.com> wrote:
>> >> >Hi Marsha and Will,
>> >> >
>> >> >Krishnamurti's ideas have always appealed to me because of his lack of
>> >> dogma
>> >> >and totally pragmatic approach. As part of his call for the 
>> individual to
>> >> >take responsibility ('You are the World') he many times talked about the
>> >> >possibility that the very structure of the brain can change. I 
>> am reading
>> >> a
>> >> >book lately:- The Brain that Changes Itself - about recent advances in
>> >> >Neuro-plasticity; it seems Krishnamurti was right and it adds gives more
>> >> >credibility to the transformational 'Process' as he called it that he
>> >> >underwent at Ojai. Perhaps he had found a way to apprehend dynamic
>> >> quality
>> >> >more clearly than the rest of us.
>> >> >
>> >> >His affair with the wife of his editorial manager 'Lives in the Shadow
>> >> With
>> >> >J Krishnamurti' written by her daughter, although very controversial in
>> >> no
>> >> >way detracts from the importance of what Krishnamurti advised.
>> >> >
>> >> >Aldous Huxley (along with John Dewey) was another famous pupil of
>> >> >F.M.Alexander and even based one of the characters of his novel 'Eyeless
>> >> in
>> >> >Gaza' on Alexander. Huxley died from cancer of the tongue whilst under
>> >> the
>> >> >effects of LSD.
>> >> >
>> >> >-KO
>> >> >
>> >> >2009/4/10 MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
>> >> >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Greetings Will,
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I've been to Ojai many times, and can close my eyes and picture the
>> >> ride
>> >> > > there. Beautiful! You don't own the yard with the mower as lawn
>> >> ornament,
>> >> > > do you?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > The topic of Krishnamurit's life has come up before. I read a
>> >> biography a
>> >> > > very long time ago. Someone in this forum mentioned he was having an
>> >> affair
>> >> > > with his brother's wife. I do not care to make any judgements on his
>> >> > > character. I saw him speak in an auditorium at Madison Square Garden.
>> >> When
>> >> > > he finished speaking he just got up and left the stage. It was very
>> >> > > strange. I read 'Think On These Things' many, many years 
>> ago, It might
>> >> have
>> >> > > been my first reading of a metaphysical type, and have been 
>> curious to
>> >> > > reread it. Also I want to read the dialogues between he and 
>> David Bohm
>> >> as a
>> >> > > way to acquaint myself with David Bohm.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > After listening to the In Our Times, 'Brave New World', and hearing
>> >> the
>> >> > > discussion concerning Aldus Huxley, I'd have to say he was just
>> >> another
>> >> > > brujo. It was a depressing IOT program.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Marsha
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > At 12:22 AM 4/10/2009, you wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >> Hi Marsha,
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> If you want to get a historical perspective on Krishnamurti, and how
>> >> he
>> >> > >> was brought up through the religion of theosophy, read "Madam
>> >> > >> Blavatsky's Baboon". It is an enjoyable read although somewhat
>> >> > >> biased. Oh, and Aldus Huxley hung out a little with Krishnamurti,
>> >> here in
>> >> > >> Ojai, near where I live.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Willblake2
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> On Apr 8, 2009, at 3:34:46 AM, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060916095
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Krishnamurti:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Would you like to discuss with you the problem of freedom. It
>> >> > >> is a very complex problem, needing deep study and understanding. We
>> >> > >> hear much talk about freedom, religious freedom, and the freedom to
>> >> > >> do what one would like to do. Volumes have been written on all this
>> >> > >> by scholars. But I think we can approach it very simply 
>> and directly,
>> >> > >> and perhaps that will bring us to the real solution.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> I wonder if you have ever stopped to observe the marvellous
>> >> > >> glow in the west as the sun sets, with the shy young moon just over
>> >> > >> the trees? Often at that hour the river is very calm, and then
>> >> > >> everything is reflected on its surface: the bridge, the train that
>> >> > >> goes over it, the tender moon, and presently, as it grows dark, the
>> >> > >> stars. It is all very beautiful. And to observe, to watch, to give
>> >> > >> your whole attention to something beautiful, your mind must be free
>> >> > >> of preoccupations, must it not? It must not be occupied with
>> >> > >> problems, with worries, with speculations. It is only when the mind
>> >> > >> is very quiet that you can really observe, for then the mind is
>> >> > >> sensitive to extraordinary beauty; and perhaps here is a clue to our
>> >> > >> problem of freedom.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Now, what does it mean to be free? Is freedom a matter of doing
>> >> > >> what happens to suit you, going where you like, thinking what you
>> >> > >> will? This you do anyhow. Merely to have independence, 
>> does that mean
>> >> > >> freedom? Many people in the world are independent, but very few are
>> >> > >> free. Freedom implies great intelligence, does it not? To be free is
>> >> > >> to be intelligent, but intelligence does not come into being by just
>> >> > >> wishing to be free; it comes into being only when you begin to
>> >> > >> understand your whole environment, the social, religious, parental
>> >> > >> and traditional influences that are continually closing in on you.
>> >> > >> But to understand the various influences - the influence of your
>> >> > >> parents, of your government, of society, of the culture to which you
>> >> > >> belong, of your beliefs, your gods and superstitions, of the
>> >> > >> tradition to which you conform unthinkingly - to 
>> understand all these
>> >> > >> and become free from them requires deep insight; but you generally
>> >> > >> give in to them because inwardly you are frightened. You are afraid
>> >> > >> of not having a good position in life; you are afraid of what your
>> >> > >> priest will say; you are afraid of not following tradition, of not
>> >> > >> doing the right thing. But freedom is really a state of 
>> mind in which
>> >> > >> there is no fear or compulsion, no urge to be secure.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Don't most of us want to be safe? Don't we want to be told what
>> >> > >> marvellous people we are, how lovely we look, or what extraordinary
>> >> > >> intelligence we have? Otherwise we would not put letters after our
>> >> > >> names. All that kind of thing gives us self-assurance, a sense of
>> >> > >> importance. We all want to be famous people - and the moment we want
>> >> > >> to be something, we are no longer free.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Please see this, for it is the real clue to the understanding
>> >> > >> of the problem of freedom. Whether in this world of politicians,
>> >> > >> power, position and authority, or in the so-called spiritual world
>> >> > >> where you aspire to be virtuous, noble, saintly, the moment you want
>> >> > >> to be somebody you are no longer free. But the man or the woman who
>> >> > >> sees the absurdity of all these things and whose heart is therefore
>> >> > >> innocent, and therefore not moved by the desire to be 
>> somebody - such
>> >> > >> a person is free. If you understand the simplicity of it you will
>> >> > >> also see its extraordinary beauty and depth.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> After all, examinations are for that purpose: to give you a
>> >> > >> position, to make you somebody. Titles, position and knowledge
>> >> > >> encourage you to be something. Have you not noticed that 
>> your parents
>> >> > >> and teachers tell you that you must amount to something in 
>> life, that
>> >> > >> you must be successful like your uncle or your grandfather? Or you
>> >> > >> try to imitate the example of some hero, to be like the Masters, the
>> >> > >> saints; so you are never free. Whether you follow the example of a
>> >> > >> Master, a saint, a teacher, a relative, or stick to a particular
>> >> > >> tradition, it all implies a demand on your part to be something; and
>> >> > >> it is only when you really understand this fact that there is
>> >> freedom..
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> The function of education, then, is to help you from childhood
>> >> > >> not to imitate anybody, but to be yourself all the time. And this is
>> >> > >> a most difficult thing to do: whether you are ugly or beautiful,
>> >> > >> whether you are envious or jealous, always to be what you are, but
>> >> > >> understand it. To be yourself is very difficult, because you think
>> >> > >> that what you are is ignoble, and that if you could only change what
>> >> > >> you are into something noble it would be marvellous; but that never
>> >> > >> happens. Whereas, if you look at what you actually are and 
>> understand
>> >> > >> it, then in that very understanding there is a transformation. So
>> >> > >> freedom lies, not in trying to become something different, nor in
>> >> > >> doing whatever you happen to feel like doing, nor in following the
>> >> > >> authority of tradition, of your parents, of your guru, but in
>> >> > >> understanding what you are from moment to moment.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> You see, you are not educated for this; your education
>> >> > >> encourages you to become something or other - but that is not the
>> >> > >> understanding of yourself. Your `self' is a very complex 
>> thing; it is
>> >> > >> not merely the entity that goes to school, that quarrels, that plays
>> >> > >> games, that is afraid, but it is also something hidden, not obvious.
>> >> > >> It is made up, not only of all the thoughts that you think, but also
>> >> > >> of all the things that have been put into your mind by other people,
>> >> > >> by books, by the newspapers, by your leaders; and it is possible to
>> >> > >> understand all that only when you don't want to be 
>> somebody, when you
>> >> > >> don't imitate, when you don't follow - which means, really, when you
>> >> > >> are in revolt against the whole tradition of trying to become
>> >> > >> something. That is the only true revolution, leading to 
>> extraordinary
>> >> > >> freedom. To cultivate this freedom is the real function of 
>> education.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Your parents, your teachers and your own desires want you to be
>> >> > >> identified with something or other in order to be happy, secure. But
>> >> > >> to be intelligent, must you not break through all the 
>> influences that
>> >> > >> enslave and crush you?
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> The hope of a new world is in those of you who begin to see
>> >> > >> what is false and revolt against it, not just verbally but actually.
>> >> > >> And that is why you should seek the right kind of education; for it
>> >> > >> is only when you grow in freedom that you can create a new world not
>> >> > >> based on tradition or shaped according to the idiosyncrasy of some
>> >> > >> philosopher or idealist. But there can be no freedom as long as you
>> >> > >> are merely trying to become somebody, or imitate a noble example.
>> >> > >> (TOTT, pp.12-15)
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> ..
>> >> > >> _____________
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the
>> >> > >> stars...........
>> >> > >> ..
>> >> > >> ..
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>> >> > >>
>> >> > >
>> >> > > .
>> >> > > _____________
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the
>> >> stars..........
>> >> > > .
>> >> > > .
>> >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>> >>
>> >> .
>> >> _____________
>> >>
>> >> Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the
>> >> stars.........
>> >> .
>> >> .
>> >>
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >
>> > .
>> > _____________
>> >
>> > Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the 
>> stars.........
>> > .
>> > .
>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>
>.
>_____________
>
>Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
>.
>.
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.
_____________

Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
.

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