[MD] Evolution

[markhsmit]

Hi John,

I would say that reality goes way beyond what you know.  I suppose that a small subset of reality
is what you know.  What about what I know, is that not real?

Willblake2
On Aug 2, 2009, at 9:50:06 AM, "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
From:   "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
Subject:    Re: [MD] Evolution
Date:   August 2, 2009 9:50:06 AM PDT
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
How about this then? Reality is what you KNOW it is.
John


On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:08 PM, markhsmit <markhsmit at aol.com> wrote:

> Reality is whatever you think it is? What utter nonsense! Sounds like a
> definite dead end
> in the evolutionary tree of philosophy. If reality is whatever you think,
> then what is the you
> that is creating that reality? Isn't that "you" a little more real than
> the reality it is creating?
> Or do you create you? It's like a snake eating it's own tail! Cyclical
> platitudes are so
> wonderfully useless. Reality is what you make it, ha!, indeed. That is
> really a useful
> statement, and where does that get you? Reality is what you feel? Then
> what is creating
> those feelings? This is truly a concept which is simply self serving, and
> if that is
> you enlightened whisper, good luck with that!
>
> No reality is outside what our feeble brains are trying to make of it. Yet
> the brains are part
> of it, entirely. I would suggest a little more thought goes into getting
> out of these
> self-centered ideas. They will get you nowhere, completely useless.
>
> Just an opinion and suggestion.
>
> Willblake2
>
>
> On Jul 21, 2009, at 2:04:00 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> Subject: Re: [MD] Evolution
> Date: July 21, 2009 2:04:00 PM PDT
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> You seem to think evolution is important, I want to get at what is behind
> names, definitions and explanation.
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer
> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 4:38 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Evolution
>
>
>
>
> On 7/20/09 1:26 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>
> [Marsha]
> Evolution is a high quality intellectual (scientific) static pattern of
> value concerned with the order of existence.
>
> [Marsha]
> Holy Moly, I'm from Michigan too. Small world. My favorite place was Irish
> Hills where my Oma lived on one of the Twin Lakes.
>
> [Marsha]
> Reality? I was in tears of joy with the best understanding of REALITY I
> ever heard spoken by Lila: "...I'm whatever your questions turn me into.
> You
> don't see that. It's your questions that make me who I am. If you think I'm
> an angel then that's what I am. If you think I'm a whore then that's what I
> am. I'm whatever you think. And if you change your mind about me then I
> change too. So whatever Richard tells you, it's true. There's no way he can
> lie about me." - Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
> you can lie about it, and if you change your understanding of reality, then
> reality changes too.
>
> Hi Marsha and all,
>
> [Joe]
> Reality/Evolution. Platt denies that intellect can determine value. “I?m
> whatever your questions turn me into.”
>
> [Joe]
> Imho I ordinarily do not think. In an analogy to a coin there are three
> questions to ask about every manifestation. What it is, active? What it
> is not, passive? At what level of evolution is it, neutral? Ordinarily
> “I?m whatever your questions turn me into” emphasizes the passive “I am
> made
> into something!”
>
> [Joe]
> “Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
> you can lie about it, and if you change your understanding of reality, then
> reality changes too.”
>
> [Joe]
> My impulse starts from an active “do something attitude” which is quite
> insensitive. Imho the neutral “edge” of the coin, existence, remains
> unspoken but understood in most statements of experience in that it is
> undefined, not-conscious, evolution.
>
> Joe
>
> Marsha:
> Reality? I was
> > in tears of joy with the best understanding of REALITY I
> ever heard spoken by
> > Lila: "...I'm whatever your questions turn me into. You
> don't see that. It's
> > your questions that make me who I am. If you think I'm
> an angel then that's
> > what I am. If you think I'm a whore then that's what I
> am. I'm whatever you
> > think. And if you change your mind about me then I
> change too. So whatever
> > Richard tells you, it's true. There's no way he can
> lie about me." -
> > Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
> you can lie about it, and
> > if you change your understanding of reality, then
> reality changes too.
>
>
> >
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
> > Greetings Joe,
> >
> > What is not relative? I might wonder
> > what put you into a seminary for 12
> > years? I was very small when I sensed
> > there was something behind the
> words
> > and explanations: the moon, the
> > Absolute, Dynamic Quality. Not this, not
> > that, and certainly not a
> > metaphysics.
> >
> > And what is good, Phædrus,
> > And what is not good...
> >
> > Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?
> >
> > Did you find the explanations
> > for circling the moon satisfying? Creation?
> > Evolution? I'd say: not this,
> > not that.
> >
> > I love the Metaphysics of Quality, an inquiry into morals.
> >
> >
> >
> > Marsha
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> >
> > [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph
> Maurer>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 5:29 PM
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Subject:
> > Re: [MD] Evolution
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/19/09 12:43 AM, "MarshaV"
> > <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Marsha and all,
> >
> > My thought as I typed
> > ³Absolute² was that Pirsig tied morals to evolution.
> > On my copy of Lila the
> > subtitle is AN INQUIRY INTO MORALS. My sense is
> that
> > for Pirsig evolution
> > is not speculation, but the metaphysical description
> > for levels of Quality.
> > These levels become the metaphysical basis for
> > morality. Is it that just
> > metaphysical descriptions are subject to
> > evolution, or are social laws? My
> > thought is that the members of society
> > are also evolving or have already
> > evolved to the intellectual level and
> > beyond (Bo¹s meta-level). IMO the
> > basis for morality transcends cultural
> > differences so I used the word
> > ³Absolute². I would not defend it other
> > than in an evolutionary scenario.
> > I sincerely hope that explanation helps
> > relieve the ³troubling².
> >
> > I
> > realize now that mathematics¹ has broader conceptualizations, the
> > universe.
> > Maybe evolution is specific to Earth¹s inhabitants. I do not
> > want to start
> > a creation-evolution debate, even though morality may not be
> > specific to
> > earth, when Worlds collide. IMO Pirsig avoided discussing any
> > origins for
> > the moon¹s orbit around the earth. But I have read some
> > explanations for
> > the moon¹s orbit around Earth.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >> Greetings Joe,
> >>
> >> Isn't
> > evolution also related to human conceptualization? Where does the
> >> very
> > word and definition of 'evolution' come from? Isn't evolution
> merely
> >> the
> > best intellectual (scientific) static pattern of value explaining the
> >>
> > origin of life on Earth? What about time? Does evolution assume a
> >>
> > relationship with time? Is time an Absolute? No, how can it be, is it
> >>
> > related to change/motion? Your view of evolution as Absolute on planet
> >>
> > Earth is troubling.
> >>
> >> Marsha
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Marsha and all.
> >>
> >> My
> > story is chance. I studied in a Catholic Seminary, College and
> >> Monastery
> > for 12 years. After 12 years of studying St Thomas Aquinas, I
> >> thought I
> > knew Philosophy. I was married to Louise after Anna was born.
> > We
> >> studied
> > esotericism for 4 years with a lady who had studied with John
> >> Bennett.
> >>
> >
> >> Louise decided to get a BA degree so she could get a better job, and in
> >
> > the
> >> course of her studies Zen and the Art was suggested reading. She told
> > me
> > I
> >> would like it. I did, and later I bought Lila in paperback. Then
> > by
> > chance
> >> I found the forum.
> >>
> >> I was skeptical, but something in me
> > resonates to Quality. I think
> > evolution
> >> is Absolute truth on planet
> > Earth.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >>> Hi Joe,
> >>>
> >>> Nothing wrong with conventional
> > truth as long as I don't mistake it for
> >>> Absolute Truth. Evolution is a
> > great conventional truth. It has a
> >> history,
> >>> it has changed over time,
> > and will continue to change until it has too
> >> many
> >>> anomalies to survive.
> > I like to think of everyday experience and
> >>> conventional truth like a
> > kaleidoscope. Each shift exposes a different,
> >>> astounding view. But I
> > haven't always been so mellow.
> >>>
> >>> What's your story Joe? What moved you
> > to philosophy? What brought you
> > to
> >>> this forum?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Marsha
> >>
> >
> >>
>
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