[MD] Evolution

markhsmit markhsmit at aol.com
Sun Aug 2 23:08:32 PDT 2009 

Thanks John, I won't.   I guess you are talking about personal reality.

I thought we were talking about REALITY.

Cheers,

Willblake2

On Aug 2, 2009, at 10:58:14 PM, "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
From:   "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
Subject:    Re: [MD] Evolution
Date:   August 2, 2009 10:58:14 PM PDT
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Well my reality is what I know, your reality is what you know, and when our
realities intersect we get a bigger knowing.
But please don't take any of this too seriously. It's not meant to be taken
seriously. And don't ever ask anyone else for confirmation of your reality.


Seriously.

john

2009/8/2 markhsmit <markhsmit at aol.com>

> Hi John,
>
> I would say that reality goes way beyond what you know. I suppose that a
> small subset of reality
> is what you know. What about what I know, is that not real?
>
> Willblake2
> On Aug 2, 2009, at 9:50:06 AM, "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> From: "John Carl" <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MD] Evolution
> Date: August 2, 2009 9:50:06 AM PDT
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> How about this then? Reality is what you KNOW it is.
> John
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:08 PM, markhsmit <markhsmit at aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Reality is whatever you think it is? What utter nonsense! Sounds like a
> > definite dead end
> > in the evolutionary tree of philosophy. If reality is whatever you think,
> > then what is the you
> > that is creating that reality? Isn't that "you" a little more real than
> > the reality it is creating?
> > Or do you create you? It's like a snake eating it's own tail! Cyclical
> > platitudes are so
> > wonderfully useless. Reality is what you make it, ha!, indeed. That is
> > really a useful
> > statement, and where does that get you? Reality is what you feel? Then
> > what is creating
> > those feelings? This is truly a concept which is simply self serving, and
> > if that is
> > you enlightened whisper, good luck with that!
> >
> > No reality is outside what our feeble brains are trying to make of it.
> Yet
> > the brains are part
> > of it, entirely. I would suggest a little more thought goes into getting
> > out of these
> > self-centered ideas. They will get you nowhere, completely useless.
> >
> > Just an opinion and suggestion.
> >
> > Willblake2
> >
> >
> > On Jul 21, 2009, at 2:04:00 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> > From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> > Subject: Re: [MD] Evolution
> > Date: July 21, 2009 2:04:00 PM PDT
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> >
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > You seem to think evolution is important, I want to get at what is behind
> > names, definitions and explanation.
> >
> >
> > Marsha
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> > [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph
> Maurer
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 4:38 PM
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Subject: Re: [MD] Evolution
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/20/09 1:26 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> >
> > [Marsha]
> > Evolution is a high quality intellectual (scientific) static pattern of
> > value concerned with the order of existence.
> >
> > [Marsha]
> > Holy Moly, I'm from Michigan too. Small world. My favorite place was
> Irish
> > Hills where my Oma lived on one of the Twin Lakes.
> >
> > [Marsha]
> > Reality? I was in tears of joy with the best understanding of REALITY I
> > ever heard spoken by Lila: "...I'm whatever your questions turn me into.
> > You
> > don't see that. It's your questions that make me who I am. If you think
> I'm
> > an angel then that's what I am. If you think I'm a whore then that's what
> I
> > am. I'm whatever you think. And if you change your mind about me then I
> > change too. So whatever Richard tells you, it's true. There's no way he
> can
> > lie about me." - Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
> > you can lie about it, and if you change your understanding of reality,
> then
> > reality changes too.
> >
> > Hi Marsha and all,
> >
> > [Joe]
> > Reality/Evolution. Platt denies that intellect can determine value. “I?m
> > whatever your questions turn me into.”
> >
> > [Joe]
> > Imho I ordinarily do not think. In an analogy to a coin there are three
> > questions to ask about every manifestation. What it is, active? What it
> > is not, passive? At what level of evolution is it, neutral? Ordinarily
> > “I?m whatever your questions turn me into” emphasizes the passive “I am
> > made
> > into something!”
> >
> > [Joe]
> > “Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
> > you can lie about it, and if you change your understanding of reality,
> then
> > reality changes too.”
> >
> > [Joe]
> > My impulse starts from an active “do something attitude” which is quite
> > insensitive. Imho the neutral “edge” of the coin, existence, remains
> > unspoken but understood in most statements of experience in that it is
> > undefined, not-conscious, evolution.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > Marsha:
> > Reality? I was
> > > in tears of joy with the best understanding of REALITY I
> > ever heard spoken by
> > > Lila: "...I'm whatever your questions turn me into. You
> > don't see that. It's
> > > your questions that make me who I am. If you think I'm
> > an angel then that's
> > > what I am. If you think I'm a whore then that's what I
> > am. I'm whatever you
> > > think. And if you change your mind about me then I
> > change too. So whatever
> > > Richard tells you, it's true. There's no way he can
> > lie about me." -
> > > Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
> > you can lie about it, and
> > > if you change your understanding of reality, then
> > reality changes too.
> >
> >
> > >
> > Marsha
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Greetings Joe,
> > >
> > > What is not relative? I might wonder
> > > what put you into a seminary for 12
> > > years? I was very small when I sensed
> > > there was something behind the
> > words
> > > and explanations: the moon, the
> > > Absolute, Dynamic Quality. Not this, not
> > > that, and certainly not a
> > > metaphysics.
> > >
> > > And what is good, Phædrus,
> > > And what is not good...
> > >
> > > Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?
> > >
> > > Did you find the explanations
> > > for circling the moon satisfying? Creation?
> > > Evolution? I'd say: not this,
> > > not that.
> > >
> > > I love the Metaphysics of Quality, an inquiry into morals.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Marsha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >
> > > From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> > >
> > > [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph
> > Maurer>
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 5:29 PM
> > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > Subject:
> > > Re: [MD] Evolution
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 7/19/09 12:43 AM, "MarshaV"
> > > <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Marsha and all,
> > >
> > > My thought as I typed
> > > ³Absolute² was that Pirsig tied morals to evolution.
> > > On my copy of Lila the
> > > subtitle is AN INQUIRY INTO MORALS. My sense is
> > that
> > > for Pirsig evolution
> > > is not speculation, but the metaphysical description
> > > for levels of Quality.
> > > These levels become the metaphysical basis for
> > > morality. Is it that just
> > > metaphysical descriptions are subject to
> > > evolution, or are social laws? My
> > > thought is that the members of society
> > > are also evolving or have already
> > > evolved to the intellectual level and
> > > beyond (Bo¹s meta-level). IMO the
> > > basis for morality transcends cultural
> > > differences so I used the word
> > > ³Absolute². I would not defend it other
> > > than in an evolutionary scenario.
> > > I sincerely hope that explanation helps
> > > relieve the ³troubling².
> > >
> > > I
> > > realize now that mathematics¹ has broader conceptualizations, the
> > > universe.
> > > Maybe evolution is specific to Earth¹s inhabitants. I do not
> > > want to start
> > > a creation-evolution debate, even though morality may not be
> > > specific to
> > > earth, when Worlds collide. IMO Pirsig avoided discussing any
> > > origins for
> > > the moon¹s orbit around the earth. But I have read some
> > > explanations for
> > > the moon¹s orbit around Earth.
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > >> Greetings Joe,
> > >>
> > >> Isn't
> > > evolution also related to human conceptualization? Where does the
> > >> very
> > > word and definition of 'evolution' come from? Isn't evolution
> > merely
> > >> the
> > > best intellectual (scientific) static pattern of value explaining the
> > >>
> > > origin of life on Earth? What about time? Does evolution assume a
> > >>
> > > relationship with time? Is time an Absolute? No, how can it be, is it
> > >>
> > > related to change/motion? Your view of evolution as Absolute on planet
> > >>
> > > Earth is troubling.
> > >>
> > >> Marsha
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Hi Marsha and all.
> > >>
> > >> My
> > > story is chance. I studied in a Catholic Seminary, College and
> > >> Monastery
> > > for 12 years. After 12 years of studying St Thomas Aquinas, I
> > >> thought I
> > > knew Philosophy. I was married to Louise after Anna was born.
> > > We
> > >> studied
> > > esotericism for 4 years with a lady who had studied with John
> > >> Bennett.
> > >>
> > >
> > >> Louise decided to get a BA degree so she could get a better job, and
> in
> > >
> > > the
> > >> course of her studies Zen and the Art was suggested reading. She told
> > > me
> > > I
> > >> would like it. I did, and later I bought Lila in paperback. Then
> > > by
> > > chance
> > >> I found the forum.
> > >>
> > >> I was skeptical, but something in me
> > > resonates to Quality. I think
> > > evolution
> > >> is Absolute truth on planet
> > > Earth.
> > >>
> > >> Joe
> > >>
> > >>> Hi Joe,
> > >>>
> > >>> Nothing wrong with conventional
> > > truth as long as I don't mistake it for
> > >>> Absolute Truth. Evolution is a
> > > great conventional truth. It has a
> > >> history,
> > >>> it has changed over time,
> > > and will continue to change until it has too
> > >> many
> > >>> anomalies to survive.
> > > I like to think of everyday experience and
> > >>> conventional truth like a
> > > kaleidoscope. Each shift exposes a different,
> > >>> astounding view. But I
> > > haven't always been so mellow.
> > >>>
> > >>> What's your story Joe? What moved you
> > > to philosophy? What brought you
> > > to
> > >>> this forum?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Marsha
> > >>
> > >
> > >>
> >
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