[MD] Philosophy and Philosophology

[Andre Broersen]

Dear Bodvar,

Thank you for explaining to me you responses to Ian. They are muchly
appreciated.

I have more thoughts and questions and I hope you will indulge a dud.

For you the 4th level IS the S/O aggregate. As Phaedrus argued; rationality,
reason, the Church of Reason dominated by Aristotelian S/O dialectics,
leading invariably to S/O divisions...i.e the employment of the dialectical
method leading to these divisions!

Phaedrus states on p 374 (ZMM) that when Aristotle concluded that substances
dominate all, to which appearances (qualities as adjectives) cling our
'SCIENTIFIC understanding of reality was born'. He goes on to say that the
Good was reduced to a relatively minor branche of knowledge called
ethics...Arete is dead...'.

Bodvar, I do not for one second believe that its death did not leave ghosts.
Its ghosts did wonder through the ages. How else can we make sense of the
characters of Sylvia and John? This, as Phaedrus calls it 'romantic'
understanding. It has stayed alive and well throughout the ages and has
resulted in many a conflict between 'authority' and intellectuals and the
common people.
The dominant reasoning, the dominant rationality, they felt (without being
able to identify what) had something missing. Phaedrus gave a name to
symbolise this missing piece: Quality/ morality.

And now I want to suggest something else on this forum related to this. You
ask (and have asked before and have answered it) where was quality before
Pirsig (MoQ). I state now, and this get me way off the mark, that Quality
cannot be treated in the same way as Newton's Law of Gravity...which did not
exist before Newton.

Phaedrus RE-DISCOVERED Quality. Nobody had conveniently covered up the Law
of Gravity before Newton and hid it (to suggest another interpretation of
apples falling down). This was the case with Arete, which Phaedrus
identifies with Quality.

P371, 'Lightning hits', 'He's  been doing it right all along'.  A
confirmation...it's one of the oldest concepts in human consciousness...now
rediscovered ( thank goodness).

It was part of the mental activity of the Sophists (before a scientific
understanding to attain truth was born). To teach arete as a form of the
highest social good ( our present day celebrity stuff I suppose... but not
quite...a combination of the narrator's version as well...to do the right
thing with the heart, head and hands p291).And it remaind a social good
despite being made subservient to Truth ( an intellectual good).

Thus Truth became an Intellectual PoV and to arrive at this Truth one needed
to follow the dialectical method: Aristotle's
esthetics/definitions/logic/forms/substances/ rhetoric/ laughter and more
laughter p376.

But are these hard-wired in our brains Bodvar? You seem to imply so.
Intellect is it and intellectualising is so dominated by it that it cannot
get away from underneath it. Is the (intellectual) level hard- wired or is
it simply learned behaviour...you know, the stuff that happens at schools
and colleges (which show more and more drop-outs).

>From where comes the MoQ? Surely this comes from the intellectual level in
combination with non- intellectual 'tools' to arrive at Quality!

P233:...feelings of quality...it sounded warm...warmer...hot. All levels are
included and, imho gelling them together at the Code of Art...a complete
intuitive integration of all.

It is designated as a static PoV by Pirsig, which you condemn because the
quality aspect then has disappeared ( if I am wrong in my reading please say
so) because Quality is a non-intellectual event! It is a dynamic event and
the MoQ as discussed on this MD is from a static point of view. There are
two ways of 'experiencing the MoQ. The static and the dynamic way. (see
Anthony's PhD).

Anyway Bodvar, I hope this has thrown up some responses. I agree with your
S/O dominated stuff but do not agree that we are forever condemned to
swallow S/O food. It is not a closed shop. If it is we are operating at a
different level of consciousness...alternating between the intellectual
level and all others.

For what it is worth.
Andre