[MD] Consciousness (explained?)

[markhsmit]

On Aug 20, 2009, at 9:33:15 AM, "Ham Priday" <hampday1 at verizon.net> wrote:
I have no idea what "non-appropriative awareness" is supposed to mean. 
Dzogchen is a meditative state sought by the Tibetan Buddhists that can 
roughly be compared to Nirvana. According to Wikipedia, the practice is 
"not endorsed by all Tibetan Buddhists" and at least one master, Tsongkhapa, 
"...states that without consciousness, there is no understanding."

Hi Ham,
I fully appreciate your tolerance of my posts.

Wikipedia give a good approximation, in words, of the discipline of Dzogchen.
It is yet another way of becoming aware, of what I believe you have been
referring to as the uncreated source (if I may).  I disagree that to achieve such
awareness can only be done through logic.  Once such an awareness is
achieved, it can be expressed (as best as possible) through logic in an
attempt to provide a path for the reader or listener.

I do not believe the estrangement from this source is terminal and can not
be achieved.  Indeed, getting totally lost in music (I know there is one Wagner
fan who would agree) is another way to achieve understanding.  I don't 
think it should be limited to the rational brain which is only one of our "sensing"
organs.

With negation of nothingness I believe you come close to explaining that
which Buddha also conceived and experienced.  I find your explanations
to match many of my realizations, just in different words or concepts.  It just
takes me a while to sift through them.

I believe that Pirsig, with the use of Quality, also expressing such a source.
Unfortunately I do not believe he expresses methods of experiencing it
outside of logic.  The tricky thing about relying solely on logic is that the 
actual sense trying to be imparted is divided up in words which form a
feeble net to catch other minds.  In fact trying to explain it is like trying
to gather up the ocean with a net.

I'm not sure if you are dismissive of meditation; I think of it more as
contemplation, no different than what you are doing, except that it
is not done through logic alone.

Cheers,
Willblake2