[MD] The Quality of Freedom

[markhsmit]

Hi Ham,

Now I understand your post.  Our sensibility does define everything.
The undefined is everything we haven't come across yet.  I thought
you were perhaps saying that what hasn't been put to words does not
exist.  I still have a problem with the notion that reason is somehow above
everything else.  While Pirsig may have said this, I believe that such an
assertion can be challenged to the benefit of Quality.  I certainly do not
want to exist in a society where everything has to be reasonable.  I learn
more from the unexpected and the paradoxical than from straight forward
logic.  One man's Reason is another man's cage.

Mark

On Dec 13, 2009, at 10:40:09 PM, "Ham Priday" <hampday1 at verizon.net> wrote:

Mark and Joe [mentioned] --


[Joe]:
> I cannot define myself, and I know I exist. Not everything I know
> is definable. Movement does not rely on a definition for existence.
> The act of a being that can with the emphasis on can. Movement
> depends on what you are looking at.

[Ham]:
> I disagree that "not everything [you] know is definable". Empirical
> knowledge is by definition definable. If existence is the relational
> system in which objects are perceived to evolve in time and space,
> does this not define movement and change? Doesn't the subjective
> awareness that apprehends your being-in-the-world define "your self"?
> What you don't know can be defined as that about which you are
> ignorant or not informed.

[Mark]:
> Definitions put the context of something into a relational context.
> Things are defined by words, which in turn are used to define that
> which they are defining. So definitions only go so far. The content
> of knowing in this sense is only relational. I know something because
> I can relate it to something else.

Knowledge is more than relational. We know the parameters of things (size, 
weight, texture and composition), their form (animal, vegetable, mineral, 
liquid or gas), their history (creation, dynamics or processes), as well as 
any aspect of their being that is useful to us. All of this knowledge is 
definitive, whether measured, observed, or expressed in words.

> In my opinion, "knowing" is beyond the intellect (definition: a 
> mechanistic
> method for relationships). Such knowing happens through something
> deeper. If we feel we know something, what we are saying is that the
> words, actions, and logic make us feel content. When one changes his
> mind, it is not because of logic, but because it feels better. 
> Illumination
> happens when the glow of emotional attachment grows stronger. So,
> while it may be possible to "define" things in relation to other things,
> such definition may appear to be inadequate to a third party.

The "glow of emotional attachment" is, indeed, "deeper than knowing." This 
represents the the esthetic value of objects and events to the observer. It 
affords us pleasure and contentment because it objectivizes our individual 
value-sensibility. The experience of such qualitative value is proprietary 
to the self, so it doesn't require definition in "universal" terms.

> Knowing through definitions is quite different from Knowing. One can
> know beauty, but not be able to define it. In fact, I would go so far as
> to say that greater than 90% of what we Know, we cannot define.

I have no major problem with your analysis, Mark. When Joe said "not 
everything known is definable," I took it to mean that part of our 
experience--he mentioned "movement" as an example--is unknowable, and that I 
deny. I didn't understand what he meant by "movement depends on what you 
are looking at." (Possibly he was referring to the observer's perspective 
relative to the object, such as when sitting in a railroad car and seeing 
things pass by the window.) I'll admit that the point of his diatribe was 
incomprehensible to me, and have asked him to clarify it.

I also think you are using "definiton" in a strictly "dictionary" sense. 
Thus, while it may be difficult to define the valuistic experience of love, 
desire, or beauty in textbook words, we know what we are experiencing. And 
that is the point I was trying to make.

Best regards,
Ham

Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/