[MD] The MOQ and religions.

[MarshaV]

Greetings Ham,

I am not sure I understand what you are stating.  I am calling unpatterned experience or direct 
experience, as I understand, maybe mistakenly, Ant's quote to suggest, experience without patterns 
of interpretation.  The MoQ has the experience (value) coming before the projection of the observer 
and the object, and I find that one need not necessarily project them at all.  

I choose 'unpatterned experience' as not to embellish the experience in any way.

And best wishes to you too for this upcoming year.   


Marsha







On Dec 28, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Ham Priday wrote:

> 
> On Dec 28, 2009, at 1:14 PM, Marsha V. wrote:
> 
>> Greetings Ham,
>> 
>> Can there be experience _without_ picking up the thread of
>> mental chatter or an analytical thread?  Yes!   Ant's statement
>> is perfect.  Perfect.  Perfect.  Perfect.  It seems more a matter
>> of awareness of such experiences.
>> 
>> "Immediate experience is experience where there is no distinction
>> between what is experienced and the act of experiencing itself."
>> -- [Anthony McWatt: Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality]
> 
> What you redundantly praise as "perfect" is the fact that Ant's statement applies to ALL experience.  The "immediate" act of experience and the awareness of something are one and the same phenomenon.  Likewise, being aware is contingent upon a cognizant observer and a referent object. Experiential reality is a dualism of value-sensibility (subjective awareness) and objectivized being (otherness).
> 
> You'll note that Pirsig and I agree that the ground of_existence_is Value (Quality).  But value-sensibility is_our_essence, not the Essence of Reality.  We do not "experience" Value directly.  Value must be realized (made sensible) by an independent agent in order to exist (to be experienced as finite phenomena).  And, since Existence is differentiated from Value in the "act" or process of experience, Existence and Essence are not synomous.
> 
> Pirsig's "metaphysics" never transcended existence.  His Quality hierarchy is based entirely on the experiential (phenomenal) realm   Euphemizing physical existence as experienced patterns of Dynamic Quality does not eliminate subject/object duality.
> 
> Thanks, Marsha.  And best wishes for the new year,
> Ham
> 
> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
> 
>> Epistemologically, experience is clearly both an "act" (which is itself
>> differentiated) and the cognizant awareness of "distinctions" or patterns.
>> I call experience the process of "objectivizing", and I distinguish it from
>> value-sensibility which is primary to experience and esthetic or
>> emotional (rather than "intellectual") in nature.  Unfortunately, MoQ's
>> author failed to make this distinction.
>> 
>> But more important to philosophy, I think, is the concept that existence
>> is a differentiated reality in which All is perceived as "each and every"
>> by a subject in relation to its object(s).  Every moment, every experience,
>> every thought, every idea is differentiated from every other.  And the
>> substantive ground of this reality is the Value from which we are each
>> estranged at birth.  We can experience and know only what we construct
>> from this Value -- good, bad, or indifferent.
>> 
>> Yet, the fact that this pluralistic construction is not chaotic but has an order
>> (or "intelligence", if you will) that is universally apprehended and appreciated
>> strongly implies a creative source that transcends all difference and otherness.
>> Although Mr. Pirsig would like us to think of this source as DQ, I cannot
>> accept Quality as an absolute.  Quality for me is only the valuistic "realization"
>> of otherness, and it requires a sensible agent.  We are all "One in Essence".
>> The source I propose is uncreated, unconditional, and beyond experience.
>> It is the essential "not-other" from which the appearance of otherness is derived.
>> 
>> Essentially yours,
>> Ham
> 
> 
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/

  
_______________________________________________________________________
   
Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...