[MD] My belief

[X Acto]

Ham --


> Ham had asked me about my beliefs, currently, my beliefs
> center on Greek stoic ideals, one maxim in particular, one of Epictetus.
> 

Ham:
Thanks for shedding some light on your personal belief system.  The Stoicism of Epictetus is fine, as far as it goes, and your quotation reminds me of Buddha's admonition that Desire is the root of all human suffering. Properly understood, however, desire is an expression of our Value, and it can bring great joy to our lives if we use it to nourish our value-sensibility.  For example, if human beings in the 15th century had chosen not to attend to "those experiences we cannot control", would science and technology have ever developed?  If we "free our minds" and "wish for nothing", how can we protect ourelves against enemies and the adversities of nature?

Ron:
Appearently they are things which we may control. Making the distinction, is often the most
difficult part.. Epictetus stated:
"Make the best use of what is in your power, and take the rest as it happens. "

"What is the first business of one who practices philosophy? To get rid of self-conceit. For it is impossible for anyone to begin to learn that which he thinks he already knows. "

"Preach not to others what they should eat, but eat as becomes you, and be silent. "

Epictetus differed from buddha in that Suffering arises from trying to control what is uncontrollable, or from neglecting what is within our power. It is developing ourselvs to make these distinctions which is of
most merit. He urged his students to study the nature of things, thus science would not have suffered.
It's an early form of pragmatism.

Ham:
Life is the struggle of all creatures to survive and flourish.  Man is equipped with the reason and value sensibility to control his environment, establish workable moral systems, and acquire the knowledge to enhance his health and living conditions.  None of this can occur if we resign ourselves to contemplating our navels and refuse to deal with the responsibilities and frustrations of the experienced world.  Likewise, philosophy cannot advance if philosophers refuse to tackle the paradox of existence and man's role in the universe.

Ron:
To me this IS navel gazing for there is no paradox of existence and man does not have a role in a
universe of value. Finite experience is illusionary, therefore any need for a role in the universe is
likewise illusionary.

Ham:
I much prefer the Epicurean philosophy to stoicism.  Epicurus said: "It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly (agreeing "neither to harm nor be harmed"), and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living a pleasant life."  Epicureanism has a bad rap today, having been falsely portrayed as advocating gluttony and self-indulgence. Moderation -- the "balanced life" -- is good and safe, but we cannot escape the struggle or the fact that man must live by "the sweat of his brow".  We need pain and anguish to remind us when something is wrong with our "being in the world",  but it is unwise to isolate ourselves from the challenges and pleasures of living life fully.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.  Thanks for yours.

Ron:
And for yours too.