[MD] new blog

[Krimel]

[Arlo]
Well I am sure now we will begin our journey of 
defining "esoteric". :-) I'd argue that you are 
confusing "miraculous" with "esoteric". Certainly 
the fundamentalist's "personal relationship with 
Jesus" is "miraculous", but the distinction is 
that for the fundamentalist Jesus is an actual 
person, whose description as a being created by 
the sexual union of God with a mortal female. 
Jesus is not a "metaphor" for anything, it is not 
a myth or a finger or a story or anything of the 
sort. There is no esotericism involved, what "is" 
is exactly and literally described in The One True Book of The One True God.

[Krimel]
I think you are right I am confusing esoteric with mystical but not I think
with miraculous. I have respect for mysticism but not so much for the
esoteric. Believing in metaphors has too often been just an excuse for
hedonism or for ignoring those who are not in the know. I think
fundamentalists are right fear efforts to demythologize. The main line
denominations that have gone this route have shrunk while those espousing
inerrancy have grown. What many people seek from religion is certainty. By
this I mean certain knowledge that everything will be ok and that no matter
what someone is in control.

[Krimel]
The holy rollers are the ones to incorporate 
mystical experiences directly into their services.

[Arlo]
As with "faith healing", I'd say again that this 
is "miraculous" but not an esoteric understanding 
of the underlying myths (in this case, Christianity) involved.

[Krimel]
Faith healing may be just a flamboyant exercise in the placebo effect. But
holy roller services offer ecstasy and mystical union with the divine in
many other forms including dancing, passing out into trance states, laughing
hysterically, (becoming drunk in the Spirit) and speaking in tongues. I
suspect in some ways believing in the myth gives rise to direct
participation in the myth.

Even among altercallers there is a kind of hierarchy among those who truly
have a personal relationship with Jesus and have attained salvation and
those who are just going through the motions. Sermons on this are and on
those who are "backsliders" are legion.

[Arlo]
By the way, although Wikipedia recognizes that 
many dispute certain inclusions on this list, it 
points out some historical esoteric tradtions. 
"In the scholarly literature, the term designates 
a series of historically related religious 
currents including Gnosticism, Hermetism, magic, 
astrology, alchemy, Rosicrucianism, the Christian 
Theosophy of Jacob Böhme and his followers, 
Illuminism, Mesmerism, Swedenborgianism, 
Spiritualism, and the theosophical currents 
associated with Helena Blavatsky and her 
followers." (Wikipedia). 

[Krimel]
No offense intended here but that is a fairly long list of bullshit. I do
not see where any of those practices is likely to produce anymore in the way
of "enlightenment" than a literal belief in the Bible.

[Krimel earlier:]
But I find it hard to complain that an 
institution should strive to perpetuate itself.

[Arlo]
I don't make this complaint. But would you 
complain about a hospital that strives to 
perpetuate itself by euthanizing its patients to 
harvest their organs to sell on the black market? 
Or a school that strives to perpetuate itself by 
deliberately uneducating poor kids to feed the needs of sweatshops?

[Krimel]
Certainly I would complain about such practices but I don't see anything
close to that going on.