[MD] Theism/epistemology

[Ham Priday]

On 2/12 at 3:26 AM Andre advises Ham that the MoQ is an analytical 
"framework" rather than a "belief system":

> The MoQ 'a belief system' ??? Well, lets not quibble about how you
> use the word 'belief'. The MoQ is a framework for analysing and
> explaining reality (as we experience it). It seeks to make sense of
> apparently disparate events (in the broadest sense of the word)
> and place these within a framework in such a way as to make
> 'the whole' understandable.

Why do we need a framework to explain reality "as we experience it"?  And 
how does stratifying experiential reality into levels and patterns qualify 
as a metaphysics?  If we know anything, it is what we directly experience. 
Categorizing human knowledge as a tetrology of levels may provide an index 
to the kinds of experience we have, but I fail to see how it makes "the 
whole" more sensible or understandable.  Even if it did, the framework you 
have defined is "reality as we EXPERIENCE it", so that the "whole" you refer 
to can only refer to the whole of  EXISTENCE.  Are we so naive as to believe 
that existence is all there is to reality?

> How you reach the conclusion that Pirsig 'posits this value in a realm
> of its own, independent of man' is I feel, a misconception.
> Positing that it is NOT independent of man explains man's (basic?) desire
> to 'transcend' his/her static patterns towards greater expressions of 
> freedom
> (DQ) (freedom from [statically restrictive] biological/ social/ cultural/
> intellectual patterns of value).

The desire for transcendence (which I attribute to man's value-sensibility) 
is, as you say, a human manifestation of Value (Quality) that is ignored by 
Pirsig.  Man cannot be a free agent of Value if the sensible subject and its 
objects are eliminated (preempted) by Quality.  Here's what he says about 
Quality ...

"What the Metaphysics of Quality would do is take this separate category, 
Quality, and show how it   contains within itself both subjects and objects. 
The Metaphysics of Quality would show how things become enormously more 
coherent--fabulously more coherent--when you start with an assumption that 
Quality is the primary empirical reality of the world."   -- [RMP: Lila]

"'Quality,' or 'value,' as described by Pirsig, cannot be defined because it 
empirically precedes any intellectual constructions.  ...Likening it with 
the Tao, Pirsig believes that Quality is the fundamental force in the 
universe stimulating everything from atoms to animals to evolve and 
incorporate ever greater levels of Quality.  According to the MOQ, 
everything (including the mind, ideas, and matter) is a product and a result 
of Quality."   -- [Wikipedia: Metapysics of Quality]

"Religion isn't invented by man.  Men are invented by religion.  Men invent 
responses to Quality, and among these responses is an understanding of what 
they themselves are." -- [RMP: ZMM]

How more "independent of man" can anything be?

(For what it's worth.)

--Ham