[MD] The Quality/MOQ dichotomy.

[MarshaV]

At 03:46 AM 2/13/2009, you wrote:
>Marsha.
>
>12 Feb. you wrote:
>
> > I do not consider "concept" to be language only.  Intellect may be
> > language only, but I'm not sure.   In my experience, concept may be
> > bits and pieces of all sorts of mental stuff.
>
>Look, it was the intellectual level that made language into
>"concepts". People of ancient times (social level) prattled, sang
>and wrote books (from Pirsig's letter to Paul Turner)
>
>     "But if one studies the early books of the Bible or if one
>     studies the sayings of primitive tribes today, the intellectual
>     level is conspicuously absent. The world is ruled by Gods
>     who follow social and biological patterns and nothing else."
>
>... but had no idea of language as something only having
>subjective relevance, this because they knew no subject/object
>distinction Only with the 4th. level did language get the said quality
>as "bits and pieces of all sorts of mental stuff". Try to climb up
>from intellect's (SOM's) perch to MOQ's meta-level.
>
>In the same letter Pirsig offered a new definition of intellect:
>
>     "Intellect" can then be defined very loosely as the level of
>     independently manipulable signs. Grammar, logic and
>     mathematics can be described as the rules of this sign
>     manipulation."
>
>This should (regarding language) have been
>
>"Intellect" can be defined as the realization that language is a
>subjective representations of an objective reality."
>
>Bo
>

Greetings Bo,

I wasn't clear.  I don't think, in general, static patterns of value, 
conceptual constructs, are exclusively linguistic.  The spovs, not 
what they are referring to.  In spovs there are other mental things 
available, images for example.  But I'm still uncertain about what 
the Intellectual Level represents.  I'm trying to imagine if you 
removed all linguistic associations from the fourth level, would 
there be any patterns left.  I'm not a mathematician, an accomplished 
musician or a logician to be able to answer that from their 
point-of-view.  I would like to hear of their experience/opinion of 
mathematical thought and musical thought.  My husband could read 
music and interpret it musically in his mind.  That seems to be 
manipulating abstract symbols that does not involve language.  I'm 
not sure, and I'm still not understand your explanation.

It sounds like you're saying that patterns of the Intellectual kind 
include the understanding that they are purely representative.


Marsha









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Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
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