[MD] Faith/Skepticism

[skutvik at online.no]

Michael.

23 Feb. Michael wrote:

> My knowledge of history and especially of the history of world faiths
> is insufficient to make a statement of why (if?) skepticism is
> predominantly a Western phenomenon. But IMO, Bo, the apparent
> predominance of skepticism in Western thought is precisely a result of
> the notion that reason and faith are separable, or more so that 
> separating reason and faith is somehow productive.

Yes, this is the very SOM conundrum that the MOQ throws a new 
light on with it's level system. The 4th intellectual  level is "reason", 
but one fact must be noted: It was reason that created faith, just 
like irrationality is rationality's necessary counterpoint and 
subjectivity is objectivity's.  People before this time (social level) 
had no notion of their existence being "irrational". 

The social level's era was an enormous time span without any 
reason versus faith dichotomy. The known mythologies and the 
many  just faintly recognized and the countless "world views" we 
have no idea about weren't considered "faith" or "religion" because 
there were no reason to make this distinction. I guess you need 
not be told this but there are so many "somists"  who just see 
history as a slow evolution of mind - of reason out of superstition.          

> I would suggest that the extraction of reason from faith has led to
> the reduction of the strength that is greater than the difference of
> the parts. We end up with faith less reason, reason less faith, and
> the sum of the two apart is less than the total of the two combined as
> one. 

Agree. As you know, Pirsig originally (in ZAMM) regarded the old 
Greek mythological past (Aretê) as identical to (his) Quality and 
consequently regarded the era that replaced it - what he called 
SOM - as a fall from grace. In this respect he is very like many 
thinkers who regard the said shift in Greece as a loss (Owen 
Barfield f.ex) 

And "young" Pirsig and all debunkers of SOM was right - yet 
wrong. As history has shown the modernity that rose from the 
Greek revolution, science, enlightenment, skepticism  proved to be 
progress - can't list all the benefits - yet, as SOM evolved it 
showed an ugly side, can't lis all these either, but in general it 
made nature a dead, inert indifferent realm that humankind is 
separated from in our subjective bubble. 

This is what the MOQ "repairs"    

> In a sense, one can say that the difference between the two sums is
> Quality. ;-)

The sum of faith and reason = Quality, yes. You know how many 
have dreamed of a reconciliation of (SOM's) the subjective and 
objective realms, and the many varieties of this dream that has 
been forwarded. In my opinion the MOQ has made the dream 
come true ... and no one cares. At least the people of this list 

> IMO its no accident (or surprise) that the Eastern faiths are not all
> that amazed at an MoQ understanding; they did not make the
> faith/reason split that the West did, and MoQ is nothing more than a
> return to a more unified metaphysical understanding that unites faith
> and reason.

Eastern? That's the so-called Oriental Tradition and may be 
correct, but for the time being let's keep within our "Mare Nostrum"  

> Anselm (or was it Augustine?) posited: 'I do not desire to understand
> in order to believe, I believe in order to understand.'

That may be Augustine, but even if Medieval Times is regarded a 
return to faith (back to the social level in moqspeak) Christendom 
came under Greek influence when Aristotle was made a Church 
authority and due to this mankind got an eternal soul (different 
from its perishable body) and Christendom evolved its notorious 
internal aspect, a soul saved by faith alone, silent prayer in private 
quarters, no need for show-off. .etc. Unknown in the all-social 
Judaism and Islam that have nothing about souls, where 
everything looks "external", rules and regulations in dress and 
food, circumcision. OK, my special field. 

> Reason without faith is blind, faith without reason is dangerous.

Amen!
 
> However, faith precedes reason. 

Agree!

> Skepticism IMO is the failure of reason to accept that preconditional
> aspect of faith. 

Even more agreement. The MOQ says that intellect (the level) has 
social roots, i.e. reason is "out of  faith". Now, intellect or reason is 
simultaneously MOQ's highest static level and SOM (for those who 
won't see the Quality Idea) so this is really an impasse: 

Now I was about to launch on my other special field, namely how 
the MOQ reconciles faith and reason, subject and object in a way 
that let us have the cake and eat it, but that will have to wait.  

Keep thinking and posting

Bo