[MD] Theism/epistemology

[Michael Poloukhine]

> Marsha said:
> Obviously I failed to dispel your skepticism towards my wish for you 
> to receive an abundance of joy.  

MP: Obviously.


> Marsha said:
> I want EVERYONE to have an abundance of joy. 

MP: How does using negation of my joy further your professed intention of 
wishing joy to me unless you are establishing yourself as an arbiter of what is 
and is not joy?

You demand this joy be on *your* terms when you question the way in which 
others pursue theirs. Quoting Deuteronomy to accentuate what you see as 
"blatant contradictions" in "the Bible" seems an odd way for you to wish me joy 
when you know I find my joy through a faith in the God of that Bible no?

When you negate the position of others to bolster yours, you also distract from 
your own message by delving into the complexities of that of others. You know 
yours very well, but you don't necessarily know others.' Your quoting 
Deuteronomy highlights the degree to which you really don't understand 
another's POV when you have decided you disagree with it. "The Bible." The 
Bible consists of many books, each with a distinct history and purpose. Do you 
know what Deuteronomy is? Where in the Bible it is found? Why it is found 
there and not elsewhere? Who wrote it it? Why he he did? When he did? That it 
precedes John by some 5,000 years? That something major occurred shortly 
after John spoke those words and what that major event meant to the books of 
the Bible that preceded the event? Do you know what the New Testament 
means to the Old? Do you know what believing in Christ means to one's 
relationship to the Old Testament? Deuteronomy is no more a contradiction to 
John than Copernicus is a contradiction to Hawking.

That you used that quote the way you did implies to me you don't know the 
answers to these questions. Yet you presume to tell *me* my flavor of joy is 
somehow illegitimate? To do so completely undermines the credibility of your 
contention that you wish an abundance of joy to me. You profess one thing, but 
act contrarily. That may not have been your intention, but the valuation result on 
my end of your actions is undeniable: no joy, low quality, avoid. You may very 
well wish me joy, and I may in fact find it, but so far, it won't be based on any 
positive contribution on your part.

The unfortunate thing I see is that based on what I gather of your joy so far, it 
needn't be that way.


> Marsha said:
> As for 
> 'theism' and 'God', those concepts have no meaning for me 
> personally.
MP: Oh, no, my dear! They clearly have TREMENDOUS meaning to you. No 
matter how much you deny it, and the more you deny it, the more you show just 
how much so. By denying they have meaning to you you only avoid the 
repercussions of making an honest admission to the contrary in this context. 
Your continued participation (and instigation) of threads on theism reveal just 
how important they are to you, and your avoidance of seeing the discussions 
through once they've started confirms your reticence to admit your position. But 
the message, even unspoken, is clear; they *have* meaning to you. The 
problem you are faced with is while you seek to live in a world of joy, those 
terms mean something to you that is not joy. It is a problem for you, that I do 
believe.


> Marsha said:
> I did provide a number of quotes by RMP indicating that 
> the MOQ was atheistic and anti-theistic which you choose to 
> ignore.
MP: To the contrary. I have responded at length to a number of those quotes 
several times. Your reactions to my responses were revealing, mostly in their 
absence, but also in their negativity. 

> Marsha said:
> I do not denigrate one approach to love over another, 
MP: Yes, you do. Else why quote Deuteronomy as you did? The contradiction 
you think you see in "the Bible" is one of your own making, and has nothing to 
do with faith in Christ being a source of joy for me or not. Its all about *you* 
when you take it upon yourself to attempt to undermine what works for me 
simply because it doesn't work for you, and then in a manner that reveals the 
degree to which you don't understand my joy in the slightest.

I have not *ONCE* said that you (or anyone else) need to believe in God to find  
joy, have I? 

Yet how many times have you denigrated theism? How many times have you 
gone out of your way to undermine its legitimacy as a source of joy, of quality? 
How many times have you started a thread about theism by posting something 
*negative* about it? How many times have you said "Okay" accompanied by a 
negation of someone else's POV?  If joy is your goal, why so much negativity 
about anything, let alone someone else's source of joy?

My impression is that you are sincere in your desire for joy, Marsha. I do think 
you believe what you say. But your words don't match your actions here. I don't 
think this is intentional either. I don't know that you necessarily recognize the 
degree to which what you say doesn't align with what you profess to live, and 
more so the degree to which that contradiction undermines what I sense as 
strength in your position.

I wish I could read you speak about your joy absent a negation of something 
else. There are plenty of atheists and antitheists here and out there that have 
negation down to an art form, but have little of quality to add in their destructive 
approach. I get the sense that you do. I get the sense that you have something 
to offer that can be expressed without defining it in negation of something else, 
and wonder why you insist on undermining your offering by resorting to doing 
so.

I get the sense you are meticulously diligent about defining your world in terms 
of joy. This is commendable. Yet are doing so in a world where there are plenty 
of unjoyful things. How you confront those things and remain consistent in 
defining things through joy is a puzzle indeed. I don't envy your conundrum. 
God's been at it forever and look where we are.

But lets please allow each other the space to find our joy our own way. 

Okay? :-)


MP
----
"Don't believe everything you think."