[MD] The Quality/MOQ dichotomy

[Platt Holden]

Hey Ham -- playing the same game,.

[Platt] 
> > Your uncreated Creator is self-contradictory and therefore
> > illogical.  So it cannot be the basis of a rational argument.
> > Strike One.

[Ham] 
> It's time to call in the umpire.  What is "self-contradictory" about an 
> uncreated creator?  Surely it makes more sense than unrealized Quality or
> an 
> evolving universe with nothing to create it.  (Foul ball.)

It's an assertion created by Ham that denies creation -- like the 
multiculturist who asserts all views are equal except those that contradict 
his multiculturist view. Strike One as called. 

[Platt]
> > You have written that without experience nothing exists.
> > Since nothing exists without experience, there can be
> > nothing beyond experience, like an uncreated Creator,
> > to "bring value into the world" or "give man the capacity
> > for discretionary judgment. Strike Two.

[Ham] 
> I have also written that existence is not Essence but a finite 
> representation of essential value.  No "things" exist without experience.
> What we call "reality" is the appearance of "beingness" -- a system of 
> differentiated things in process.  Not even scientists can refute the fact
> that all knowledge is experiential and all conclusions about objective 
> reality are based on this knowledge.  (Outside pitch.)

>From your book "Seizing the Essence, page 35. "In truth, nothing can be 
said to exist that is not capable of being experienced." -- emphasized by 
italics. Your uncreated Creator is transcendent, i.e., incapable of being 
experienced. Therefore, by your own assertion, it cannot exist. Strike Two 
as called.

[Platt]
> > Experience exists. Experience is Quality. Quality is value.
> > These principles offer a better explanation of the emergence
> > of life and evolution than your uncreated Creator or the
> > biologist's miraculous "Shazam."

[Ham] 
> Your premises are not "principles", and neither is the assumption that 
> experience, value, and reality are equivalent.

Why not?

[Ham]
> Experience is the
> cognitive 
> perception of a phenomenon.  It is value-sensibility relative to a
> specific 
> space/time locus and exists only in subjective consciousness.  (Another
> wild 
> pitch.)

What phenomenon in your subjective consciousness led you to believe in the 
existence of a transcendent (non-phenomenal) uncreated Creator? Knuckle 
ball for Strike Three.

[Ham]
> Until I know what you mean by the "biologist's 'Shazam'", the count stands
> at 3 balls, ? strikes.

A biologist's "Shazam" is his exclamation at witnessing a miracle, the same 
sort of reaction your may have had when you created the notion of an 
uncreated Creator. It's equivalent to "Eureka" and "Oops." 

> Shall we try another game?

I'm game. :-) Maybe wrestling?

Best, 
Platt