[MD] Multiculturalism scam - australia

[Ian Glendinning]

Hi gav, I have a question.

As a European having spent a couple of years in Oz and three in the
US, I would agree with your "judgements". ie it's not a matter of
sloganizing "tolerance" but judging what you find, as your experience
does.

No doubt that Oz is a greater ethnic and cultural mix even that the
US. Remembering that I was based in Perth, but spent time in
Melbourne, Sidney (but not Brissy) and also several trips to NZ, I
have a question. Whilst the "immigrant" community was ethnically
diverse and seemingly integrated, I couldn't help noticing the anomaly
that the marginalized down and outs were generally the Aboriginals,
whereas in NZ the Maoris seemed much more integrated.

Is that impression correct ? Any idea why ?

Ian

On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 5:42 AM, gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> yo,
>
> i live in probably the most multicultural country on earth - australia.
> we have never had a civil war and our cities are safer than those of the US and europe, though japan is safer still.
>
> where i live (inner brisbane) there are large numbers of greeks and lebanese and vietnamese. the restaurants are cheap and great. we also have african migrants/refugees, people from all over europe and many folk from the US and canada. there are also many hundreds of japanese and korean students. one of my workmates and best friends is from chile, a survivor of the pinochet regime.
>
> what is australian culture? australian culture IS multiculturalism. the same is probably true of the US. platt's whole argument is absurd. how can you argue for and against your own culture simultaneously and expect concurrence?
>
> i am not a fan of islam; i am not a fan of judaism or christianity either, and i find buddhism quite boring and resignatory and male too. it is time for religion to piss off. it has served its purpose and now is a barrier to authentic engagement with the world. the same can be said for any and all ideologies - they are barriers - impediments.
>
> pirsig does not advocate any ideology; his take on culture is essentially leaving it to the individual (which is the intellect) to make his/her choices for himself. simple. no need for grand theories.
>
> anyway all i am saying is that multiculturalism has the runs on the board here - it works; you get a better, more peaceful society. you get more quality.
>
> but multiculturalism has been attacked here too. the media tries to whip up hysteria any chance it gets; especially with islamic communities. but the media is shite and TV is for the retarded and i think we all know that.
>
> australians are an apathetic bunch; this like all things has its ups and downs. it means we don't get whipped up easy by the powermongers, but it also means we don't get out on the street much either. but when push comes to shove, and its getting there, the aussies tend to be a staunch bunch....and anarchy is nothing to be afraid of.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 5/1/09, Platt Holden <plattholden at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Platt Holden <plattholden at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MD] Multiculturalism scam
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Monday, 5 January, 2009, 1:20 PM
>
> All:
>
> Those who have jumped in to passionately defend multiculturism while taking
> great pleasure in personally attacking me (so much for diversity of ideas)
> have chosen not only to ignore Pirsig about the intellectual need to judge
> cultures but also the article that prompted me to bring up the subject in
> the first place. So to bring the defenders up to date I offer the full text
> of said article in the hope they will ponder the effect in the real world
> of multiculturism's unexamined worship of "tolerance." I recommend
> particular attention to the last sentence:
>
> Platt
> -------
> International Herald Tribune
> >From the left, a call to end the current Dutch notion of tolerance
> By John Vinocur
> Monday, December 29, 2008
>
> AMSTERDAM: Two years ago, the Dutch could quietly congratulate themselves
> on having brought what seemed to be a fair measure of consensus and reason
> to the meanest intersection in their national political life: the one where
> integration of Muslim immigrants crossed Dutch identity.
>
> In the run-up to choosing a new government in 2006, just 24 percent of the
> voters considered the issue important, and only 4 percent regarded it as
> the election's central theme.
>
> What a turnabout, it seemed - and whatever the reason (spent passions,
> optimism, resignation?), it was a soothing respite for a country whose
> history of tolerance was the first in 21st-century Europe to clash with the
> on-street realities of its growing Muslim population.
>
> Since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States, the Netherlands had
> lived through something akin to a populist revolt against accommodating
> Islamic immigrants led by Pim Fortuyn, who was later murdered; the
> assassination of the filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, accused of blasphemy by a
> homegrown Muslim killer; and the bitter departure from the Netherlands of
> Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali woman who became a member of Parliament before
> being marked for death for her criticism of radical Islam.
>
> Now something fairly remarkable is happening again.
>
> Two weeks ago, the country's biggest left-wing political grouping, the
> Labor Party, which has responsibility for integration as a member of the
> coalition government led by the Christian Democrats, issued a position
> paper calling for the end of the failed model of Dutch "tolerance."
>
> It came at the same time Nicolas Sarkozy was making a case in France for
> greater opportunities for minorities that also contained an admission that
> the French notion of equality "doesn't work anymore."
>
> But there was a difference. If judged on the standard scale of caution in
> dealing with cultural clashes and Muslims' obligations to their new homes
> in Europe, the language of the Dutch position paper and Lilianne Ploumen,
> Labor's chairperson, was exceptional.
>
> The paper said: "The mistake we can never repeat is stifling criticism of
> cultures and religions for reasons of tolerance."
>
> Government and politicians had too long failed to acknowledge the feelings
> of "loss and estrangement" felt by Dutch society facing parallel
> communities that disregard its language, laws and customs.
>
> Newcomers, according to Ploumen, must avoid "self-designated
> victimization."
>
> She asserted, "the grip of the homeland has to disappear" for these
> immigrants who, news reports indicate, also retain their original
> nationality at a rate of about 80 percent once becoming Dutch citizens.
>
> Instead of reflexively offering tolerance with the expectation that things
> would work out in the long run, she said, the government strategy should be
> "bringing our values into confrontation with people who think otherwise."
>
> There was more: punishment for trouble-making young people has to become so
> effective such that when they emerge from jail they are not automatically
> big shots, Ploumen said.
>
> For Ploumen, talking to the local media, "The street is mine, too. I don't
> want to walk away if they're standing in my path.
>
> "Without a strategy to deal with these issues, all discussion about
> creating opportunities and acceptance of diversity will be blocked by
> suspicion and negative experience."
>
> And that comes from the heart of the traditional, democratic European left,
> where placing the onus of compatibility on immigrants never found such
> comfort before.
>
> It's a point of view that makes reference to work and education as
> essential, but without the emphasis that they are the single path to
> integration.
>
> Rather, Labor's line seems to stand on its head the old equation of jobs-
> plus-education equals integration. Conforming to Dutch society's social
> standards now comes first. Strikingly, it turns its back on cultural
> relativism and uses the word emancipation in discussing the process of
> outsiders' becoming Dutch.
>
> For the Netherlands' Arab and Turkish population (about 6 percent of a
> total of 16 million) it refers to jobs and educational opportunities as
> "machines of emancipation." Yet it also suggests that employment and
> advancement will not come in full measure until there is a consciousness
> engagement in Dutch life by immigrants that goes far beyond the present
> level.
>
> Indeed, Ploumen says, "Integration calls on the greatest effort from the
> new Dutch. Let go of where you come from; choose the Netherlands
> unconditionally." Immigrants must "take responsibility for this country"
> and cherish and protect its Dutch essence.
>
> Not clear enough? Ploumen insists, "The success of the integration process
> is hindered by the disproportionate number of non-natives involved in
> criminality and trouble-making, by men who refuse to shake hands with
> women, by burqas and separate courses for women on citizenship.
>
> "We have to stop the existence of parallel societies within our society."
>
> And the obligations of the native Dutch? Ploumen's answer is, "People who
> have their roots here have to offer space to traditions, religions and
> cultures which are new to Dutch society" - but without fear of expressing
> criticism. "Hurting feelings is allowed, and criticism of religion, too."
>
> The why of this happening now when a recession could accelerate new social
> tensions, particularly among nonskilled workers, has a couple of
> explanations.
>
> A petty, political one: It involves a Labor Party on an uptick, with its
> the party chief, Wouter Bos, who serves as finance minister, showing
> optimism that the Dutch can avoid a deep recession. The cynical take has
> him casting the party's new integration policy as a fresh bid to
> consolidate momentum ahead of elections for the European Parliament in
> June.
>
> A kinder, gentler explanation (that comes, remarkably, from Frits
> Bolkestein, the former Liberal Party leader, European commissioner, and no
> friend of the socialists, who began writing in 1991 about the enormous
> challenge posed to Europe by Muslim immigration):
>
> "The multi-cultis just aren't making the running anymore. It's a brave step
> towards a new normalcy in this country. "
>
>
> International Herald Tribune
> >From the left, a call to end the current Dutch notion of tolerance
> By John Vinocur
> Monday, December 29, 2008
>
> AMSTERDAM: Two years ago, the Dutch could quietly congratulate themselves
> on having brought what seemed to be a fair measure of consensus and reason
> to the meanest intersection in their national political life: the one where
> integration of Muslim immigrants crossed Dutch identity.
>
> In the run-up to choosing a new government in 2006, just 24 percent of the
> voters considered the issue important, and only 4 percent regarded it as
> the election's central theme.
>
> What a turnabout, it seemed - and whatever the reason (spent passions,
> optimism, resignation?), it was a soothing respite for a country whose
> history of tolerance was the first in 21st-century Europe to clash with the
> on-street realities of its growing Muslim population.
>
> Since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States, the Netherlands had
> lived through something akin to a populist revolt against accommodating
> Islamic immigrants led by Pim Fortuyn, who was later murdered; the
> assassination of the filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, accused of blasphemy by a
> homegrown Muslim killer; and the bitter departure from the Netherlands of
> Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali woman who became a member of Parliament before
> being marked for death for her criticism of radical Islam.
>
> Now something fairly remarkable is happening again.
>
> Two weeks ago, the country's biggest left-wing political grouping, the
> Labor Party, which has responsibility for integration as a member of the
> coalition government led by the Christian Democrats, issued a position
> paper calling for the end of the failed model of Dutch "tolerance."
>
> It came at the same time Nicolas Sarkozy was making a case in France for
> greater opportunities for minorities that also contained an admission that
> the French notion of equality "doesn't work anymore."
>
> But there was a difference. If judged on the standard scale of caution in
> dealing with cultural clashes and Muslims' obligations to their new homes
> in Europe, the language of the Dutch position paper and Lilianne Ploumen,
> Labor's chairperson, was exceptional.
>
> The paper said: "The mistake we can never repeat is stifling criticism of
> cultures and religions for reasons of tolerance."
>
> Government and politicians had too long failed to acknowledge the feelings
> of "loss and estrangement" felt by Dutch society facing parallel
> communities that disregard its language, laws and customs.
>
> Newcomers, according to Ploumen, must avoid "self-designated
> victimization."
>
> She asserted, "the grip of the homeland has to disappear" for these
> immigrants who, news reports indicate, also retain their original
> nationality at a rate of about 80 percent once becoming Dutch citizens.
>
> Instead of reflexively offering tolerance with the expectation that things
> would work out in the long run, she said, the government strategy should be
> "bringing our values into confrontation with people who think otherwise."
>
> There was more: punishment for trouble-making young people has to become so
> effective such that when they emerge from jail they are not automatically
> big shots, Ploumen said.
>
> For Ploumen, talking to the local media, "The street is mine, too. I don't
> want to walk away if they're standing in my path.
>
> "Without a strategy to deal with these issues, all discussion about
> creating opportunities and acceptance of diversity will be blocked by
> suspicion and negative experience."
>
> And that comes from the heart of the traditional, democratic European left,
> where placing the onus of compatibility on immigrants never found such
> comfort before.
>
> It's a point of view that makes reference to work and education as
> essential, but without the emphasis that they are the single path to
> integration.
>
> Rather, Labor's line seems to stand on its head the old equation of jobs-
> plus-education equals integration. Conforming to Dutch society's social
> standards now comes first. Strikingly, it turns its back on cultural
> relativism and uses the word emancipation in discussing the process of
> outsiders' becoming Dutch.
>
> For the Netherlands' Arab and Turkish population (about 6 percent of a
> total of 16 million) it refers to jobs and educational opportunities as
> "machines of emancipation." Yet it also suggests that employment and
> advancement will not come in full measure until there is a consciousness
> engagement in Dutch life by immigrants that goes far beyond the present
> level.
>
> Indeed, Ploumen says, "Integration calls on the greatest effort from the
> new Dutch. Let go of where you come from; choose the Netherlands
> unconditionally." Immigrants must "take responsibility for this country"
> and cherish and protect its Dutch essence.
>
> Not clear enough? Ploumen insists, "The success of the integration process
> is hindered by the disproportionate number of non-natives involved in
> criminality and trouble-making, by men who refuse to shake hands with
> women, by burqas and separate courses for women on citizenship.
>
> "We have to stop the existence of parallel societies within our society."
>
> And the obligations of the native Dutch? Ploumen's answer is, "People who
> have their roots here have to offer space to traditions, religions and
> cultures which are new to Dutch society" - but without fear of expressing
> criticism. "Hurting feelings is allowed, and criticism of religion, too."
>
> The why of this happening now when a recession could accelerate new social
> tensions, particularly among nonskilled workers, has a couple of
> explanations.
>
> A petty, political one: It involves a Labor Party on an uptick, with its
> the party chief, Wouter Bos, who serves as finance minister, showing
> optimism that the Dutch can avoid a deep recession. The cynical take has
> him casting the party's new integration policy as a fresh bid to
> consolidate momentum ahead of elections for the European Parliament in
> June.
>
> A kinder, gentler explanation (that comes, remarkably, from Frits
> Bolkestein, the former Liberal Party leader, European commissioner, and no
> friend of the socialists, who began writing in 1991 about the enormous
> challenge posed to Europe by Muslim immigration):
>
> "The multi-cultis just aren't making the running anymore. It's a brave step
> towards a new normalcy in this country. "
>
>
> .
>
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