[MD] Using the MOQ

[Christoffer Ivarsson]

Mel, everyone

[mel:]
> When regulation acts to reduce restrain-of-trade that has
> its source in the biological pattern of greed, then it is indeed
> intellectual value 'correcting' a biological pattern using the
> social level to do so.  Regulations that set standards, such
> as weights and measures are generally sensible.

Agreed.

[mel]
> But regulation for the ideological reason should be looked
> at very carefully.  Despite the root-word 'idea', the movement
> that spawns an ideology is usually social, and the sweeping
> 'feel-good' sloganeering of the social rarely has fine powers
> of discrimination in the world.  "Truth" is bottled for its own
> protection and, thus becomes unusable.  I think that sounds
> like Static Quality.

[chris]
I disagree. Indeed an ideology may be a purely social level phenomena, 
however, the intellectual level must use the social level in order to get 
biological bodies to work to further Intellectual Good.

Secondly, Truth is always within a paradigm, and I join with Anthony McWatt 
in disliking the words "Static Quality" - rather there are stable patterns 
of value, and then there are DQ (perhaps there is a hazy middle as well when 
DQ is being realized, but that's deep metaphysics).

[mel]
> When you look at the market, not as an ideology, but as a
> simple matter of the aggregate behavior of all people with
> the click of their plastic, the rustle of their currency, and the
> jingle of their coins, then you get a sense of the background
> soundtrack of the marketplace.  It has physical, biological,
> social, and intellectual components.  It ain't simple.

[Chris]
I never said it was simple, and I know that everything is always overlapping 
and interrelated when it comes to patterns of value, however, it is my 
belief that the free market system, at it's core, is a system where social 
values have absolute supremacy, the other values we know of are only valued 
when they doesn't stand in contrast to social value (in this case, profit).

I don't see it as an ideology either, though some people practically worship 
it, I see it as a giant, a giant that can be tamed to work for us, if we use 
good chains - although we must allways look out so that the chains doesn't 
come of.

[mel]
> The intellectual level isn't 'vitimized' by the market, it's
> part of the aggregate of the market in some partial
> 'ven diagram' way.

[chris]
I disagree. Since I view the intellectual level as being The Quest for 
Knowledge, I identify it as being very immoral for this Quest to be 
restricted by what's profitable.

[mel]
> Judging from the behavior of American industry, and all the
> investment in air quality equipment, when the environment
> is comprehended as a cost-measurable-good, then it
> enters the marketplace.  OSHA regualtions show similar
> calculus of 'human cost' as do public health regulations.
>
> Bitching about the environment might raise awareness, but
> it also raises resistance when it is done in a low-quality way

[Chris]
Indeed, development of environmentally friendly products only come about 
when the intellectual level impose restrictions, or manage to create a 
social level movement that makes it un-profitable not to be environmentally 
friendly (I.e then people won't buy your stuff). The same thing goes for the 
value of human life vs. market.


> mel:
> Just to repeat, regulations that remove restraint-of-trade
> by low quality behavior and avoid creating regulation
> based restraint-of-trade (potentially even more damaging)
> are potentially in the service of DQ.

[chris]
It is my belief that no static/stable pattern of value can be "in service" 
of DQ. And I also believe that going down that road, as to justify things by 
referring  to a mystical entity called DQ that likes some things and 
dislikes other things will rightly place us in the "New Age" box.


> mel:
> An 'intellectually guided economy', however, is another thing.
> Nothing is more democratic than the choice of where to spend
> money, time, and attention.  It is the ULTIMATE democracy to
> the point of anarchism.
>
> The value of human life is rather clearly shown when an
> issue of People magazine or a tabloid journal is sold and
> a coin is deposited in a Darfur Relief box by the same store's
> cash register.  We value the starving children, just not as
> much as Brittany (sp), or Brad-Angelina/Jennifer/the Royals/
> Beckham/All Blacks/Bollywood...at the end of the day when the
> relief box and register sales are tallied.

[chris]
Yeah. I just don't believe in any of this. For one thing, "the choice of 
where to spend
 money, time, and attention" is not your to make freely. It depends on when 
and where you where born, who your parents are, how you speak, what your 
sexual preferences are etc. It's hard to see a time when those difficulties 
won't be around, but we should try to bring about true freedom: a society 
where everybody has an equal chance.


For what its worth
Chris