[MD] The Dark Knight

Thu Jan 8 23:46:36 PST 2009

At 02:40 AM 1/9/2009, you wrote:
>I recognized that Marsha ....
>Your schizophrenic sarcasm falls into the "many a true word" category for me.
>Ian

Sometimes I'm not sure I understand my own babble...

>On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 8:28 AM, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:
> >
> > KO and Ian,
> >
> > My "Who decides?   Who decides?" was sarcasm. or schizophrenia.  It looks
> > like ones patterns, or variations of patterns, are ones truths.  There are
> > many, many provisional truths.  And while they are active they are true.
> >  Nobody hold what they believe to be false.
> >
> > A while back I came across a statement about truth that shocked me with its
> > wisdom.  It was concerning the illusionary nature of conventional 
> truth, "If
> > all perceptions are false, how can any perception be true?  They 
> can be true
> > if they are known to be false."  Yup!
> >
> >
> > Marsha
> >
> >
> >
> > At 07:01 AM 1/8/2009, you wrote:
> >>
> >> Yes, Ian and Marsha, The Process! Thats dynamic quality. Who chooses - not
> >> 'I' - he is after the event, the choice.
> >> This is most mysterious!
> >>
> >> -KO
> >>
> >> 2009/1/8 Ian Glendinning <ian.glendinning at gmail.com>
> >>
> >> > Hi Marsha,
> >> >
> >> > You make my point ... as did Lila ...
> >> > The issue is inescapable and clearly it is wrong to treat it is as a
> >> > question that "GOF-intellect" can answer directly.
> >> > By asking it as a stark question I make that apparent.
> >> >
> >> > I see it more as a process for dealing with it ie the question and the
> >> > answer are much more dynamic, living, circular ... strange-loopy.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks
> >> > Ian
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:58 AM, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Who decides?   Who decides?  Everybody thinks they are on the side of
> >> > right.
> >> > >  It's the way Lila said it was...   There's no way "he" can be
> >> > > wrong...
> >> >  It
> >> > > just goes, on and on and on...  Left?  Right?  Middle?  It just
> >> > > circles
> >> > back
> >> > > onto itself one way or the other.  There is no escaping it.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > At 04:06 AM 1/8/2009, you wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Hi Steve,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I don't think we needed Ken Wilbur to point out that you need to
> >> > >> break
> >> > >> a few eggs to make an omlette.
> >> > >> Achieving something better always involves damaging / disadvantaging
> >> > >> /
> >> > >> hurting / killing / destroying something else - Darwin formalized
> >> > >> that
> >> > >> process. The only thing inherent or essential about human nature is
> >> > >> that it is evolved & evolving. When the power of better ideas fails
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> persuade (at the intellectual level), Pirsig (and Nietzsche and
> >> > >> others) show us that physical force is morally empowered to overcome
> >> > >> physical force (at the social and biological levels). There are
> >> > >> morally just uses of lethal violence, from the individual, right up
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> the the scale of wars. I don't think any of us are "pacifists"
> >> > >> pussyfooting around that.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> The question is begged of who decides when the "stronger violence is
> >> > >> in saner hands" and whether the moral balance is net positive - when
> >> > >> is it "sane" to hurt / kill / destroy for some "greater good" ? Basic
> >> > >> ethics / moral philosophy.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> It is what I keep coming back to - "governance" in a general sense -
> >> > >> who decides, and how ? We have a framework (the MoQ) for how these
> >> > >> issues of value relate, but who decides ?
> >> > >> That "sanity" is in the intellectual level of individuals. What
> >> > >> should
> >> > >> the relationship be between individual intellects and collective
> >> > >> societies - where (if any) are the (enforcable) social limits to (act
> >> > >> on) intellectual freedom ?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Ian
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Steven Peterson
> >> > >> <peterson.steve at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >> > Hi Marsha, Arlo, Ron,
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > I dabbled in pacificism for a while, but Pirsig among others
> >> > >> > convinced
> >> > >> > me that humans are not intrinsically good. This is not to say that
> >> > >> > they are intrinsically evil, either. Pragmatists have given up for
> >> > >> > looking for essences which includes trying to talk about human
> >> > >> > nature
> >> > >> > as good or evil because we don't want to talk about an essence of
> >> > >> > humanity either.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Can we achieve are goals without ever resorting to violence
> >> > >> > (including
> >> > >> > participating in a governement that has a police force and a
> >> > >> > military)? I doubt it. As Ken Wilbur pointed out, the only thing
> >> > >> > that
> >> > >> > has ever controlled violence is stronger violence in saner hands.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Best,
> >> > >> > Steve
> >> > >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> >> > >> >
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> >> > >
> >> > > .
> >> > > .
> >> > > Albert Einstein:  "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my
> >> > > consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who
> >> > > strive
> >> > > for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated."
> >> > > .
> >> > > .
> >> > > .
> >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> >> > >
> >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> >> >
> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> >
> > .
> > .
> > Albert Einstein:  "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my
> > consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive
> > for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated."
> > .
> > .
> > .
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> >
>Moq_Discuss mailing list
>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>Archives:
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/

.
.
Albert Einstein:  "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my 
consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who 
strive for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated."
.
.
.  