[MD] Wanted: A proper foundation

[skutvik at online.no]

Andrè 

On 29 Jan.

Bo before:
> > The point is that the 3rd. level people did not recognize thoughts
> > and/or ideas as different from reality - that their myths were just
> > myths - this S/O split is intellect's immense value. Have you noticed,
> > one moment I damn intellect's S/O, the next I praise it? But this is
> > MOQ's dilemma. Intellect its its highest static value, yet that which
> > prevents so many from entering the MOQ. 

Andrè:
> I am going to cut through most of the stuff and persue what remains of
> nagging interest to me by snipping your post above: 

Yours on "the evolution of the MOQ" with Mel is immensely 
important, hope to comment on it ... some time.

> Are you suggesting that the evolution of intellect from mental effort
> (thus the 'intellectualising' from 3rd level (social) 'thinking' into
> abstract/logical processes (intellectual PoV's ) has been made possible
> BECAUSE of the S/O split (since as Pirsig argues, before this split
> there were no subjects and objects)??? 

First of all I try to get (us) away from the 4th. level as "thoughts & 
ideas" (mental). There is no mental/corporeal divide in the MOQ. 
The evolution of the intellectual level is described in ZAMM as the 
emergence of SOM, and I agree with Pirsig; before this historical 
period there existed no S/O distinction in any form. 

The S/O did not spring full-fledged into existence but went through 
many phases, the first was Socrates' Appearance/Truth (the 
former what became our "subjective" the latter our "objective")  
then Plato's Appearance/Ideas (here ideas are the permanent - 
objective - part)            

> And, furthermore that because (and with the aid) of this S/O split,
> Pirsig has been able to develop his MoQ ..

YES!!!!!! SOM's paradoxes was what drove young Phaedrus out 
on his quest that ended in the Quality Epiphany. Thus SOM was 
the necessary springboard to the the MOQ. 

> (and not without it because there had been no need)??? 

A subtle point this, but if you say that without SOM there would be 
no need for the MOQ I say "YES". Remember that ZAMM saw the 
Aretê Age as equal to Quality? In a MOQ retrospect Aretê was the 
social level's heyday, but existence's dynamic aspect didn't leave 
there and started on the intellectual pursuit.       
 
> And, thirdly, had this evolutionary step not been made possible, would
> we still have lived in a 'myth' or rather a state wherein our (present
> day) capacity to reflect and 'rationalise' would not have been
> 'realised'??

That's exactly it. And there are cultures that still cling to the "social" 
level's value, my chief example the Islamic world. People there 
cling to the Semitic (I call) myth of a god who has issued eternal 
rules through a prophet. Now that they have come to Europe they 
try to limit our intellectual freedom. Right now - in this country - 
there is much ado about a new law issued to protect the muslims 
from satire (the cartoons you know).          

> Clarifying these would greatly help me understand your SOL
> interpretation. But again...keep it simple. Pretend you have to
> explain this to a 5-year old!!!

Oh, I did not see this before I started to write. ;-) However I think 
you have matured a bit beyond that age.

Bodvar