[MD] Percepts and Concepts

[MarshaV]

Greetings Ham,

I came to this forum as a student to learn a better philosophy of 
life.  I've learned many things, but hopefully not to play a 
competitive game.  Lila is a word that is sometimes called the game 
of life, but I prefer to consider Lila the dance of life, or if a 
game, then the hide and seek of reality.


Marsha


At 06:35 PM 7/6/2009, you wrote:

>On 7/5/09 at 3:30 PM John Carl wrote --
>
>>Part of acknowledging a game in good sportsmanship, is acknowledging
>>one's opponent - that there must be AGREEMENT in order for the game
>>to have any validity.  You can play alone, but it's not the same thing
>>as philosophy.
>
>Sporting or not, I am earnestly looking for AGREEMENT.  Frankly, I'm 
>not concerned that "the game" has validity as long as we understand each other.
>
>>You accede to the main thrust of my point by admitting you change
>>your presentation according to your conception of the correspondent.
>>And for me, that's what I mean  by "we're playing a game"  or "we're
>>indulging in an artform".  Just to be clear upon two points you and I
>>have disagreed upon.
>
>This is a philosophy forum, not an "art form".  I adapt my 
>presentation (verbally) as best I can to the correspondent's 
>vernacular and worldview. The overall concept remains unchanged.
>
>Now.
>>on to the rest, best I can....
>[Quoting Ham]:
>>>Yes.  The first thing to understand is that all value is realized, and the
>>>realizer is a subject.
>>
>>So the "value" I realise is something outside of myself, which "I" the
>>realizer conceive of using my entire conceptual/perceptual apparatus and
>>deduce from... sensory data???
>>
>>Is the first thing I need to understand yer basic SOM?  Cuz I get that.
>>Been handed that way of thinking  basically my whole life.  Is that what
>>you are offering Ham?  More of the same?
>
>Yes, value is the realization of that which is beyond (i.e., other 
>to) the self.  However, I prefer "self/other dichotomy" to Pirsig's 
>"SOM" whose meaning is ambiguous to folks here.  "More of the 
>same"?  I offer more than the MoQ, which is not the same.  My 
>philosophy is based on an uncreated Source.  Quality and Value are 
>perceived attributes of beingness whose existence depends on the 
>subject, hence do not quality as the primary Source.
>
>[Ham, previously]:
>>>While survival may be a value from the human perspective,
>>>biological instinct and organic response mechanisms automatically
>>>serve this purpose in simple organisms.
>
>[John]:
>>"Serve this purpose" means "is valued by" in essence.  Why do you change
>>terminology in the interest of confusion?  It makes me question your whole
>>purpose in this game.
>
>Why do you insist on rewording my statements to confuse the 
>issue?  Would serve this "function" have made my meaning any clearer?
>
>[Ham]:
>>>Only man has the capacity to discern moral and esthetic values
>>>and the freedom to choose accordingly.
>
>>Wrong.  AND blatantly anthropocentric.  Even my dog can choose
>>to go left or right.  Even my dog knows when he's doing wrong.
>
>Do you consider this choice a moral or esthetic value?  Is the dog's 
>behavior a valuistic decision at all, or only an instinctual 
>response?  And, yes, Essentalism is an anthropocentric 
>philosophy.  I'm surprised you didn't know that.
>
>>>But the values that drive man's behavior are not "universal" but
>>>relative to his sensibility and the situation he confronts.  Finally,
>>>all values are derived from Essence,
>
>>Or God.  Or Quality.  Or Tao.  Or the big turtle which holds the worlds
>>on its back.   whatever .  They're all postulated mythos blowin' in the wind
>>and the only question that matters to me is "which one is best"?  Which
>>pertains to the quality of one's society, eh?  The society that picks the
>>best mythos wins.  Yay.
>
>Is this how you play your game, John, by ridiculing your 
>opponent?  If so, it's not worth my time and effort.  I get enough 
>ridicule and contempt from Arlo and Krimel.
>
>Go play your game in somebody else's yard.
>
>-- Ham
>
>
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"Compassion diminishes fright about your own pain and increases inner 
strength." ~His Holiness, the Dalai Lama