[MD] Percepts and Concepts

[John Carl]

Hey Arlo,
On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Arlo Bensinger <ajb102 at psu.edu> wrote:

> [John]
> I guess I may have overestimated people. I thought that they would take
> what is said about art, scuplting rotisseries and 'what not' in Zen and the
> Art of Motorcycle Maintenance into account anyway, because that is why we
> are here after all, and it was a pretty obvious part of the book.
>

That was Kat, who said that, btw.   But nevermind all that, including who
the "duh" is intended for, let's get to the meatiest of points:



> [Arlo]
>



> I do believe, really, that one of the biggest challenges faced here is the
> re-defining (or historical correction in definition) of "art" and how we use
> this idea in normal, regular discourse with folks on or off this forum. This
> uphill struggle runs against the ingrained ideas of "art" as a reference to
> "objects" produced by very specific activity (painting, sculpting (statues,
> not rotisseries), composing, etc.)
>


How would we reconceptualize his statement? Maybe, "So much activity today
> is non-art, but every now and then you find those whose activity is of such
> high quality that it is artistic."




> Even the idea of "producing art" is problematic, since "art" is the moment
> of relation between the object of activity and the activity itself. I almost
> prefer the term "work of art" because at least it emphasizes that the object
> in question is not the art, but is an outcome of "artful activity", although
> it does continue to privilege the "object" unfairly over the "activity".


Right now I'm building two staircases made out of logs - one circular and
one straight.  It is considered highly artistic by observers.  What I used
to do before was crank out regular old framed stairs - I'd get a "good job"
now and then but it was never considered artistic.  Yet my skills and
methods are pretty similar - I'm the same guy performing the same function
with material made from trees.  The round shape of logs is art and the
square patterns of lumber is not.   Even if I do a crappy job on the log
staircase, it's still considered art. Maybe bad art, but art.  Even if I
perform perfectly on stairs made conventionally, it's never considered art
at all.  At the most, fine craftsmanship.

Note, I'm not arguing with your points at all.  I agree that these cultural
definitions are sloppy and ill conceived, but there is something there in my
experience I do recognise as different and I think the difference is between
the free creativity and following the rules - the difference between a child
drawing something from scratch and filling in between the lines in a
coloring book.

When the lines are all laid out for you, it's craft.  When you have to come
up with the lines yourself, it's art.


Whaddya think?

John



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-- 
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There are differing interpretations of Reality, some are just better than
others, that's all.
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