[MD] Another parallel

[MarshaV]

Dmb,

I get the absurdity part...

Can you demonstrate or communicate in a manner that is not 
subject/object based?  Can you point to an intellectual tool that is 
not subject/object based?  It seems to me everything in the 
Intellectual Level is subject/object oriented including the MoQ.

If the 4th level is a set of intellectual tools (we know of many s/o 
based tools), what would be a MoQ tool as opposed to a s/o 
tool?   (Mysticism is outside all levels)  Is the MoQ merely 
subject/object-language based explanation?   Is the MoQ to be just 
another discussion in philosophy journals or does it offer a better 
world-view?

I cannot help but agree with Bo that the MoQ needs to be lifted to 
give a broader perspective.  All static patterns in all levels 
represent conventional (s/o) reality.  From a higher perspective the 
ever-changing, interrelated and interconnected experience of patterns 
with DQ be properly considered.


Marsha









At 12:26 PM 7/14/2009, you wrote:

>dmb said:
>
>In the MOQ, intellect is not amoral, objective or value-free and yet 
>there is still coherence, logical consistency, agreement with 
>experience, as well as elegance and simplicity. It has tremendous 
>explanatory power, solves philosophical problem, and it begins with 
>an alternative set of metaphysical assumptions. That, my friend, 
>means it is intellectual without being SOM. Thus they cannot be identical.
>
>Marsha replied:
>
>I'm trying to understand what you are suggesting this MoQ is 
>like.  Is this MoQ intellect, that shares the 4th level, experience 
>like intuition and insight, or can it be stated in words.  Can you 
>demonstrate it?
>
>
>dmb says:
>I'm not sure if I understand your question or what "it" is that 
>you'd like to see demonstrated. The idea is simply that the 
>Metaphysics of Quality is a metaphysical system and metaphysical 
>systems are intellectual. "A metaphysics must be divisible, 
>definable, and knowable, or there isn't any metaphysics." In other 
>words, a metaphysics is necessarily static and conceptual. If it 
>can't be stated in words, then it is not a metaphysics. "Since 
>metaphysics is essentially a kind of dialectical definition and 
>since Quality is outside of definition, this means a 'Metaphysics of 
>Quality' is essentially a contradiction in terms, a logical 
>absurdity." This is what it means to say that there is a discrepancy 
>between concepts and reality. I suppose "intuition and insight" 
>could be used to refer to DQ or the pre-conceptual reality, in which 
>case they would be outside of definition too. "The central reality 
>of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had called 'Quality' in his 
>first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece. Quality doesn't have 
>to be defined. You understand it without definition, ahead of 
>definition. Quality is a direct experience independent of and prior 
>to intellectual abstractions".
>
>SOM doesn't have a central undefined term like Quality but, like all 
>metaphysics, it still "must be divisible, definable and knowable". 
>It still has to be made up of concepts and has to be expressible in 
>words "or there isn't any metaphysics". In that sense, the MOQ and 
>SOM are two different pictures in the art gallery analogy. They are 
>two different maps with different ways of depicting the same 
>territory. They both use that analytical knife to carve up reality 
>into conceptual pieces. (Those three explanations come from Pirsig 
>too.) These are all just different ways to express the same basic 
>idea, namely that SOM and the MOQ are rival sets of static 
>intellectual patterns. That's what I mean by saying they are both 
>intellectual while at the same time they are different from each 
>other. By analogy, German culture and French culture are both 
>cultures but that doesn't mean they're identical. Fords and Chevys 
>are both cars but that doesn't mean they're identical. Likewise, SOM 
>and the MOQ both exist as intellectual descriptions but this does 
>not mean they are identical. And this why Bo's equation (Intellect = 
>SOM) doesn't work. If intellect and SOM were the same thing, then 
>there would be no possibility of ever having the MOQ or any other 
>alternative metaphysics.



____________

"Compassion diminishes fright about your own pain and increases inner 
strength." ~His Holiness, the Dalai Lama