[MD] Empirical and Historical

[skutvik at online.no]

Hi Platt

13 July you wrote:

> You say the MOQ is reality itself. But how can a metaphysics be
> reality itself? A metaphysics is a description of reality. As such
> it's a part of reality, not all of reality. For one thing a
> description of reality would leave out the describer.

I know I test your patience, but it's the heart of the MOQ. You protest 
the "MOQ being reality itself" assertion on the grounds that theories 
are conveyed by language and language is subjective concepts in our 
minds, different from reality it describes . But this is SOM - the MOQ 
seen from the intellectual level -  not intellect seen from the MOQ.

SOM (intellect)  forms everything in its S/O mold. If there isn't an 
objective reality -  described by a "describer" - then all is description, 
all is language. It leaves no other alternatives WE must break out of 
this S/O pattern to understand the MOQ. The said pattern is the 
highest static value, but not reality itself.      

> For another thing, it leaves out patterns other than patterns of
> itself. Do you get my drift? What am I missing? 

I guess this is the "... then all is"  point above. Intellect forcing us into 
either of its two extremes.    

I had said: 
> > Scientific theories can be presented as independent of the theory
> > and the latter-day Pirsig tries the same with the MOQ, as if he
> > accidentally discovered Quality's unique position, but as he
> > demonstrated in ZAMM (the Newton Gravity example) he Quality Reality
> > is the MOQ. Not as an idea in Pirsig's mind, but as the metaphysics,
> > wherever it had its origin.  

Platt:
> I need further explanation of this. Is the MOQ separate from the idea
> of the MOQ?

I would drop ideas in the "concept ... in our mind" sense.when talking 
about the MOQ because it invokes SOM's mind/matter split that the 
MOQ rejects. 

> If so, where does the idea of the MOQ fit into the MOQ? 

The MOQ as an idea belongs to intellect. The MOQ began as an 
intellectual pattern but turned too unruly (dynamic) for comfort and tore 
loose. .    

> Or is paradox our lot in life when it comes to thinking about reality? 

I don't see it as paradoxical unless we regard intellect in its SOM role 
as shuffling around of ideas in our mind. It's MOQ role is the value of 
the subject/object (mind/matter) DISTINCTION or AGGREGATE.

IMO

Bodvar.