[MD] Reductionism

MarshaV valkyr at att.net
Thu Jul 16 05:02:53 PDT 2009 

At 07:54 AM 7/16/2009, you wrote:
>Marsha:
> >Could the zero be so dreaded because of the
> >computer?  In days of old, dividing by zero would
> >cause a computer program to crash, and infinity
> >would put it into an never-ending
> >loop.  Naaaa.  It must be that zero and infinity are too dynamic.
>
>Ron:
> >Perhaps zero and infinity are too abstract. In 
> computers, 0 stands for on/off
> >with 1. loops are bad programing. viruses began as loops of bad programing.
> >Bad programing is sloppy programing, intructions
> >that do not account for it's own
> >errors in logic. Until it malfunctions. This a
> >very simplistic explaination and
> >the actual processes are very complex.
>
>Marsha:
>Aren't you talking about two separate systems,
>the electrical circuitry represented by a binary
>numerical system and the decimal numerical system
>abstracted and used by mathematicians.  Sure
>sloppy programming in a application sense, but
>within the theoretical equations of physicists I
>would image both, zero and infinity, are legitimate answers.
>
>But believe me in this realm I really, really, really know zero.
>
>Ron:
>I thought thats what you were talking about. 
>zero and infinity are two different concepts.
>Zero is a "thing" that stands for "nothing" a 
>reification of an idea that doesent really exist
>in experience while infinity could be said to model experience.


Marsha:
I maybe misunderstood you.  Really, I know much 
too little, and say too much.  I will 
confess,though, that if I were starting my 
education, I would want to study physics.  It is 
very interesting, a playground of numbers.



 >Infinity is a running integer. the running integer is dynamic and is useful
> >in terms of limits and a fairly accurate model of flux. This is why
> >I was so turned on by topos theory, sets of infinite variables may
> >build or decrease to form or disolve higher 
> set orders. It models an evolving
> >dynamic structure of variables, if one introduces high values or low values
> >to a "sheaf" or value set, one may see how it effects the whole model
> >holistically.
> >I thought it was pretty neat.
> >
> >-Ron
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> >From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> >To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> >Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 6:54:40 AM
> >Subject: Re: [MD] Reductionism
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >At 06:08 PM 7/15/2009, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > >And I believe a zero, or two, is one of the big
> > >reasons why the hunt for the Hadron, at Fermilab and soon at CERN.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >At 02:44 PM 7/15/2009, you wrote:
> > >
> > >Sharath, Marsha,
> > >I've heard it described as a place holder for numerical values
> > >a whole number representing nothing. which caused a stir
> > >in Greek philosophy.
> > >Zero figures heavily in physics and chemistry
> > >and denotes a point of beginning.
> > >infintesimals are addressed in calculus and higher mathematics.
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0_(number)
> > >
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinitesimal
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >________________________________
> > >From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> > >To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > >Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 2:26:34 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [MD] Reductionism
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Not sure, but zero, along with infinity, does
> > >seem to be something physicists don't want 
> as an answer in their equations.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >At 02:23 PM 7/15/2009, you wrote:
> > > >I wonder what really is zero
> > > >
> > > >On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:08 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Can't Joe create something like a Plank's Constant for himself, one
> > > > > guaranteed to get rid of those nasty zeros.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At 01:56 PM 7/15/2009, you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Joe,
> > > > >> Well, division by zero is not so much 
> "physically impossible" as it is
> > > > >> "in violation of mathematical axioms."
> > > > >> Division by zero is an operation for 
> which you cannot find an answer,
> > > > >> so it is disallowed. You can understand why if you think about how
> > > > >> division and multiplication are related.
> > > > >>  12 divided by 6 is 2  because
> > > > >>    6 times 2 is 12
> > > > >>
> > > > >>  12 divided by 0 is x  would mean that
> > > > >>    0 times x = 12
> > > > >>
> > > > >> But no value would work for x because 0
> > > times any number is 0. So division
> > > > >> by zero doesn't work.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> There's a special word for stuff like
> > this, where you could conceivably
> > > > >> give
> > > > >> it any number of values. That word is
> > "indeterminate." It's not the same
> > > > >> as
> > > > >> undefined. It essentially means that if
> > it pops up somewhere, you don't
> > > > >> know
> > > > >> what its value will be in your case. For
> > instance, if you have the limit
> > > > >> as x->0
> > > > >> of x/x and of 7x/x, the expression 
> will have a value of 1 in the first
> > > > >> case and 7
> > > > >> in the second case. Indeterminate.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ________________________________
> > > > >> From: Joseph Maurer <jhmau at sbcglobal.net>
> > > > >> To: "moq_discuss at moqtalk.org" <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
> > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:58:28 PM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: [MD] Reductionism
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hi Bo,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I will work on the complications.  Thank
> > > you! for your encouragement, and
> > > > >> the Time you have put into MOQ.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Joe
> > > > >> On 7/13/09 11:14 PM, "skutvik at online.no" <skutvik at online.no> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > Hello  Joe
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I've noticed comments from you that includes me, but I have
> > > > >> > developed some eye problem (when gazing at the screen for a long
> > > > >> > time some strange patterns start to
> > > appear)  I must simply limit myself
> > > > >> > ...give priority to "saving the MOQ" :-)
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > However, this your input goes to the heart of the matter:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >> Imho (in my humble opinion), MOQ
> > (Metaphysics Of Quality) reasonably
> > > > >> >> changed the basis of the logic of 
> SOM (Subject Object Metaphysics).
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Right you are.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >> SOM logic defines an undefined 
> subject by the action of a defining
> > > > >> >> verb.  In the case of dividing by 0 this is illogical. Descartes
> > > > >> >> states: ³I think therefore I am!²
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > As ZAMM describes it SOM emerged as a result of the Greek
> > > > >> > philosophical frenzy that brought that culture away from its old
> > > > >> quality-
> > > > >> > based (Aretê) reality. Now, with LILA
> > this must be put into a Q-level
> > > > >> > context and it's plain that SOM is the
> > > intellectual level emerging from
> > > > >> > Aretê as the social level. And only 
> now can Descartes' statement be
> > > > >> > evaluated and we see that SOM (with
> > him) had reached its final stage,
> > > > >> > a mental (mind) realm totally removed the material one. After
> > > > >> > Descartes - with the empiricist - 
> arose the problem which of the two
> > > > >> > realms is the real (causes the 
> other) and that see-saw that has gone
> > > > >> > up and down ever since. This quandary was what brought young
> > > > >> > Phaedrus to despair and triggered his
> > Quality insight that (as you so
> > > > >> > correctly say) "...changed the basis of the logic of SOM"
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >> The  subject has only intentional
> > > existence.  Aristotle defines motion
> > > > >> >> in a similar way: ³The act of a being
> > > in potency in as much as it is in
> > > > >> >> potency.²  In SOM the subject is undefined (with only intentional
> > > > >> >> existence from the object) and 
> becomes defined by the action of the
> > > > >> >> verb and object. E.g., the man is
> > > eating.  The ³man² is defined in the
> > > > >> >> eating, and we can distinguish the ³man² from a statue.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > This may be correct, but terribly 
> complicated. SOM's problem is that
> > > > >> > the subject can't exist without the
> > > world, and the world not without the
> > > > >> > subject, i.e. the mind/matter 
> duality is an aggregate and yet SOM's
> > > > >> > logical base does not allow this so
> > it's plain that a fundamental base
> > > > >> > shift is needed ... just what the MOQ is and in its light the S/O
> > > > >> > distinction becomes its STATIC
> > intellectual level. This way the VALUE
> > > > >> > is retained while the problems dissolve.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >> In MOQ (Metaphysics of Quality) the subject is defined in an
> > > > >> >> evolutionary hierarchy.  The object, the level of evolution, is
> > > > >> >> defined in the action, SOL.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > At least the above about SOM = the intellectual level is the SOL
> > > > >> > interpretation.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Yours sincerely
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Bodvar
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > >
> > >____________
> > >
> > >"Compassion diminishes fright about your own
> > >pain and increases inner strength." ~His Holiness, the Dalai Lama
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> >
> >____________
> >
> >"Compassion diminishes fright about your own pain
> >and increases inner strength." ~His Holiness, the Dalai Lama
> >
> >
> >
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>____________
>
>"Compassion diminishes fright about your own pain
>and increases inner strength." ~His Holiness, the Dalai Lama
>
>
>
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____________

"Compassion diminishes fright about your own pain 
and increases inner strength." ~His Holiness, the Dalai Lama

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