[MD] Another parallel

[X Acto]

> Marsha:
> The problem of discussing it is at least the overlaying a subject-object language on every statement.  (Where is your evidence [Mon, 4 May 2009 10:57:00 -0700] of the existence of an intellectual pattern that is other than objective?  You said that you were developing an argument.)
> 
> Ron:
>  everyday experience is an intellectual pattern

Marsha:
The idea of everyday experience or experience.

Ron:
Difficult, little of both, they influence one another to form experience.

Ron prev:
> that is not SOM based if you understand the MoQ.

Marsha:
Experience, to my mind, is outside of all patterns.

Ron:
Experience is but the interpretation is not.

ron prev:
> the point is that SOM is
> characterized by objective assumptions, it's a metaphysical view of all experience.
> An interpretation of experience.

Yes, an assumption made of all patterns.

> How may I provide evidence of my understanding?

Marsha:
That seems something you need to figure out.

Ron:
or a way in which to understand.



> and interpretation?

Marsha:
If it makes sense, you find a way.

Ron:
if you are open to it, you may understand.

> it's the same experience interpreted two different ways.
Marsha:
I disagree.  There is no self and no independent objects.  That there seems to be is an illusion.  There is only experience.

Ron:
There is the understanding you just expressed above and there is 
the understanding of SOM.

> Both are quality interpetations, one is more inclusive than the other.
> Same words, same expereince, interpreted two different ways.
Marsha:
There is interpretation and a better interpretation.  It is closer to the truth because it states that experience is primary.


> Our grammar and sentence structure gives the illusion that it supports
> objectivism and it does if one is an objectivist.
Marsha:
Yes.  How many individuals are not Objectivists?  Most of them!!!  I want all individuals to see from the Quality point-of-view.


> But if one is an MoQer
> they are static intellectual patterns, it's in the understanding not the words
> or patterns.
marsha:
I experience.

Ron:
We all experience, it's in how we understand that experience.


> Marsha:
> Using our language, it is difficult not to sound absurd no matter what you say.  Bo's lifting the MoQ out of the fourth level seems to represent an appropriate paradigm shift.  From this new level, maybe a new language, a better model and new tools will be developed.  I am not absolutely convinced, but I have a very strong feeling that Bo is on the right track, and I have not thought of a better way to represent the MoQ.
> 
> Ron:
> because all of objective knowledge supports it. Everything we ever were
> taught re-inforces it, if feels right, but it isn't.
> it seems to makes sense, but it doesent.

Marsha:
And why some care needs to be taken in how it is presented.

Ron:
Agee!! why I disagree with Bo.

> a new level, a new language, a better model is addressing the symptoms
> not the problem, the problem is the way "we" meaning society, thinks. How
> "we" interpet experience. No amount of tools or languge changes may help it
> it begins with an understanding about interpretation, then the static patterns
> of "tools" falls into place in usefulness in explaination and understanding.
> Then objective ways of understanding are limited and MoQ illumenates them
> more fully in it's understanding of them.

Marsha:
What?  Paragraph rewrite required...


Ron:
Perhaps a paragraph re-read is required.

> Marsha:
> I consider Bo's concern to be one for the future of the MoQ.  With so many years of confusion over the Intellectual Level, I think his solution is best.  Dmb seems to me to be in University mode and is projecting too much academic assumption.  It all sounds very "academic" but seems to me not stand on its own.  I've enjoyed hearing about Radical Empiricism and Pragmaticism, but I am more inclined to think that the MoQ has gone beyond them both.  Of course, I came to a better understanding (I think) of the MoQ through my effort to understand Buddhism's Emptiness and the MiddleWay .  That may be my prejudice.
> 
> Ron:
> Just because MoQ is being taught in universities doesent mean it's objectivism.

Marsha:
I never said this.  Btw, is the MoQ being taught in the University?  How many?

Ron:
SOM IS a Quality metaphysics but there are better ones, MoQ follows in the
tradition of Pragmatism. which is taught in universities also. Objective dominance 
is being broken. A metaphysics of Quality is a metaphysics which breaks 
static dominance.

Ron prev:
> to confuse academia with a dominate form of understanding is lumping one
> with the other. The "middle way" is not the rejection of intellect or the glorification
> of it, but an understanding about it, thus, it called the middle way.

Marsha:
The MiddleWay to me is the understanding that conventional truth and Absolute Truth are mutually interdependent, but I am not a Buddhist scholar.

Ron:
The middle way is the understanding that conventional truth and Absolute Truth are mutually static they are interpretations of experience. truth is expereince
it is'nt anything conceptual. not even mutual interdependance, that is a quality 
intellectual pattern.


> to direct intellect
> toward the dynamic. toward freedom from domination from any static pattern.
> to love wisdom, to focus desire not toward knowledge but toward understanding.
> to develop an attitude of inquirey of wonder. of the skepticism of what we "think"
> we know. the ultimate intellectual pattern, DQ. the greatest virtue.
> I could'nt explain it before, but I think now I am able.

Marsha:
I am happy with some time in awareness without thoughts intruding.  And am humbled by knowing my knowing to be nothing.

Ron:
Then start from this when you view SOM.



 



________________________________
From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 9:59:33 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Another parallel

At 09:22 AM 7/16/2009, you wrote:
> Hello Marsha,
> 



Marsha








____________

"Compassion diminishes fright about your own pain and increases inner strength." ~His Holiness, the Dalai Lama

  
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/