[MD] MOQ Evolution

Joseph Maurer jhmau at sbcglobal.net
Wed Jul 22 12:07:22 PDT 2009 



On 7/21/09 1:38 PM, "Joseph Maurer" <jhmau at sbcglobal.net> wrote:


> 


On 7/20/09 1:26 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

[Marsha]
Evolution
> is a high quality intellectual (scientific) static pattern of
value concerned
> with the order of existence.
 
[Marsha]
Holy Moly, I'm from Michigan too.
> Small world. My favorite place was Irish
Hills where my Oma lived on one of
> the Twin Lakes.

[Marsha]
Reality?  I was in tears of joy with the best
> understanding of REALITY I
ever heard spoken by Lila: "...I'm whatever your
> questions turn me into. You
don't see that. It's your questions that make me
> who I am. If you think I'm
an angel then that's what I am. If you think I'm a
> whore then that's what I
am. I'm whatever you think. And if you change your
> mind about me then I
change too. So whatever Richard tells you, it's true.
> There's no way he can
lie about me."   -    Reality is whatever you think it
> is, there's no way
you can lie about it, and if you change your understanding
> of reality, then
reality changes too.

Hi Marsha and
> all,

[Joe]
Reality/Evolution. Platt denies that intellect can determine
> value.   “I’m
whatever your questions turn me into.”

[Joe]
Imho  I ordinarily
> do not think.  In an analogy to a coin there are three
questions to ask about
> every manifestation.   What it is, active?  What it
is not, passive?   At what
> level of evolution is it, neutral?  Ordinarily
“I’m whatever your questions
> turn me into” emphasizes the passive “I am made
into something!”
> 

[Joe]
“Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
you can lie about
> it, and if you change your understanding of reality, then
reality changes
> too.”

[Joe]
My impulse starts from an active “do something attitude” which is
> quite
insensitive.  Imho the neutral “edge” of the coin, existence,
> remains
unspoken but understood in most statements of experience in that it
> is
undefined, not-conscious, evolution.

Joe

Marsha:
Reality?  I was
> in
> tears of joy with the best understanding of REALITY I
ever heard spoken by
>
> Lila: "...I'm whatever your questions turn me into. You
don't see that. It's
>
> your questions that make me who I am. If you think I'm
an angel then that's
>
> what I am. If you think I'm a whore then that's what I
am. I'm whatever you
>
> think. And if you change your mind about me then I
change too. So whatever
>
> Richard tells you, it's true. There's no way he can
lie about me."    -
>
> Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
you can lie about it,
> and
> if you change your understanding of reality, then
reality changes too.
> 
 

> 
Marsha
 

  

> Greetings Joe,
> 
> What is not relative?  I might
> wonder
> what put you into a seminary for 12
> years?  I was very small when I
> sensed
> there was something behind the
words
> and explanations: the moon,
> the
> Absolute, Dynamic Quality.  Not this, not
> that, and certainly not a
>
> metaphysics.
> 
>   And what is good, Phædrus,
>   And what is not good...
>
>
> Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?
> 
> Did you find the
> explanations
> for circling the moon satisfying? Creation?
> Evolution?  I'd
> say: not this,
> not that.
> 
> I love the Metaphysics of Quality, an inquiry
> into morals.
>
> 
>  
> Marsha 
>   
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>  
> -----Original
> Message-----
>
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>
>
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer>
>
> Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 5:29 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject:
>
> Re: [MD] Evolution
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/19/09 12:43 AM, "MarshaV"
>
> <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi Marsha and all,
> 
> My thought as I typed
>
> ³Absolute² was that Pirsig tied morals to evolution.
> On my copy of Lila
> the
> subtitle is AN INQUIRY INTO MORALS.  My sense is
that
> for Pirsig
> evolution
> is not speculation, but the metaphysical description
> for levels
> of Quality.
> These levels become the metaphysical basis for
> morality.  Is
> it that just
> metaphysical descriptions are subject to
> evolution, or are
> social laws?  My
> thought is that the members of society
> are also evolving
> or have already
> evolved to the intellectual level and
> beyond (Bo¹s
> meta-level).   IMO the
> basis for morality transcends cultural
> differences
> so I used the word
> ³Absolute².   I would not defend it other
> than in an
> evolutionary scenario.
> I sincerely hope that explanation helps
> relieve the
> ³troubling².
> 
> I
> realize now that mathematics¹ has broader
> conceptualizations, the
> universe.
> Maybe evolution is specific to Earth¹s
> inhabitants.  I do not
> want to start
> a creation-evolution debate, even
> though morality may not be
> specific to
> earth, when Worlds collide. IMO
> Pirsig avoided discussing any
> origins for
> the moon¹s orbit around the
> earth.  But I have read some
> explanations for
> the moon¹s orbit around
> Earth.
> 
> Joe
> 
>> Greetings Joe,
>> 
>> Isn't
> evolution also related to
> human conceptualization?  Where does the
>> very
> word and definition of
> 'evolution' come from?  Isn't evolution
merely
>> the
> best intellectual
> (scientific) static pattern of value explaining the
>>
> origin of life on
> Earth?  What about time?  Does evolution assume a
>>
> relationship with time?
> Is time an Absolute?  No, how can it be, is it
>>
> related to change/motion?
> Your view of evolution as Absolute on planet
>>
> Earth is troubling.
>> 
>>
> Marsha
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Marsha and all.
>> 
>> My
> story is chance.   I
> studied in a Catholic Seminary, College and
>> Monastery
> for 12 years. After
> 12 years of studying St Thomas Aquinas, I
>> thought I
> knew Philosophy.  I
> was married to Louise after Anna was born.
> We
>> studied
> esotericism for 4
> years with a lady who had studied with John
>> Bennett. 
>>
> 
>> Louise
> decided to get a BA degree so she could get a better job, and in
>
> the
>>
> course of her studies Zen and the Art was suggested reading.  She told
> me
>
> I
>> would like it.  I did, and later I bought Lila in paperback.  Then
> by
>
> chance
>> I found the forum.
>> 
>> I was skeptical, but something in me
>
> resonates to Quality. I think
> evolution
>> is Absolute truth on planet
>
> Earth.
>> 
>> Joe
>> 
>>> Hi Joe,
>>> 
>>> Nothing wrong with conventional
>
> truth as long as I don't mistake it for
>>> Absolute Truth.  Evolution is a
>
> great conventional truth.  It has a
>> history,
>>> it has changed over
> time,
> and will continue to change until it has too
>> many
>>> anomalies to
> survive.
> I like to think of everyday experience and
>>> conventional truth
> like a
> kaleidoscope. Each shift exposes a different,
>>> astounding view.
> But I
> haven't always been so mellow.
>>> 
>>> What's your story Joe?  What
> moved you
> to philosophy?  What brought you
> to
>>> this forum?
>>> 
>>>
> 
>>> Marsha
>>
> 
>> 

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