[MD] Moq Evolution
Joseph Maurer
jhmau at sbcglobal.net
Sun Jul 26 12:16:36 PDT 2009
On 7/24/09 1:36 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer
> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:58 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>
>
>
>
> On 7/23/09 10:31 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>
>> Greetings Joe,
>>
>> You mentioned the relationship between seven and the esoteric traditions.
>> This story of Ishtar/Inanna's descent is very old.
>>
>> You've used the word 'chaos', and I wonder what it means really? Is it
> just
>> an objective word for fear? Deep fear? Does it have an aspect of time
>> associated with it? Is it experienced for a moment, an hour, a day, week
> or
>> year? Forever? Is it being unable to control the past and the future?
>> Unpredictability? Love? Life? Is evolution a pattern of predictability?
>> (Also associating neural chemistry with emotions?) I'm trying to guess
>> here, it would be better if you explained it. What is chaos?
>>
>>
>>
>> Marsha
>
>
>
> Hi Marsha,
>
> The only description for ³chaos² that I can come up with is DQ in
> evolution.
>
> Bo used a good example : The ocean has finite and transient forms (waves and
> currents) but is absolute and immutable in itself because waves and currents
> are water too. Thanks Bo!
>
>
> Greetings Joe,
>
> DQ as chaos? I don't get that kind of vibration at all. To me DQ
> (experience sans the intellect's chatter) is peace and silence, and
> sometimes joy.
>
>
> Marsha
>
Hi Marsha,
I blew a fuse, and will be doing some lateral drifting on MOQ evolution.
I looked in the archives to see where I used the word "chaos". I didn't
find anything. Maybe you could refresh my memory.
The only urge I have is How would I choreograph the dance of the 7 veils?
It would have to have at least two, maybe three acts!
Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer
>> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 6:30 PM
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/23/09 12:19 AM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>
>> [Marsha]
>> "The Dance of the Seven Veils is also thought to have originated with the
>> myth of the goddess Ishtar and the god Tammuz of Assyrian and Babylonian
>> lore. In this myth, Ishtar decides to visit her sister, Ereshkigal, in the
>> underworld. When Ishtar approaches the gates of the underworld, the
>> gatekeeper lets Ishtar pass through the seven gates, opening one gate at a
>> time. At each gate, Ishtar has to shed an article of clothing. When she
>> finally passes the seventh gate, she is naked. In a rage, Ishtar throws
>> herself at Ereshkigal, goddess of the underworld; but Ereshkigal orders
> her
>> servant Namtar to imprison Ishtar and unleash sixty diseases against her.
>> After Ishtar descends to the underworld, all sexual activity ceases on
>> earth. Papsukkal, the messenger-god, reports the situation to Ea, king of
>> the gods. Ea creates a eunuch called Asu-shu-namir and sends him to
>> Ereshkigal, telling him to invoke "the name of the great gods" against her
>> and to ask for the bag containing the waters of life. Ereshkigal, having
>> promised to grant Asu-shu-namir's wish, is enraged when she hears the
>> demand, but she has to give him the water of life. Asu-shu-namir sprinkles
>> Ishtar with this water, reviving her. Then Ishtar passes back through the
>> seven gates, getting one article of clothing back at each gate, and is
> fully
>> clothed as she exits the last gate. Her release is, however, granted only
>> under the condition that she find someone to replace her in the
> underworld.
>> Tammuz, Ishtar's husband, has been making merry while she has been dead,
> and
>> so the goddess sends Tammuz to Ereshkigal."
>>
>>
>> Hi Marsha and all,
>>
>> No, I don¹t see AW GI as being an accusation/insult. I see it as the
>> open-eyed, child wonder, ³I didn¹t know that!, but I can learn²
>>
>> Imho I can look at things, in general, from two points of view. How does
>> it manifest? Is it active, passive or neutral? Or in what order does it
>> manifest? The first question looks at reality as one, made up of 3 forces,
>> Active, Passive, or Neutral. Tamuz making merry.
>>
>> Or I can look at things as being in some order, like evolution, the
> musical
>> scale, seven intervals with two of them being of different value.
>> Undefined, with no clothes on, is the MOQ description of order. Not
>> knowing the joy of order, sex goes away and is merely a party.
>>
>> Ishtar¹s order is a higher consideration than Tamuz¹ manifestations. A
>> story of life!
>>
>> The point of view is secondary to, in what order of evolution does it
>> reside?
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 8:00 PM
>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/22/09 1:45 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Joe,
>>>
>>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>>> An interesting aspect of your posts is that I am never sure how to
>> respond,
>>> so I wing it.
>>>
>>> [Joe]
>>> I miss Krimel¹s spontaneity. ³wing it² I can hear him guffawing about
>>> brining chickens to mind. In a heavy rainstorm chickens will look up,
>> open
>>> their beaks, and drown.
>>>
>>> Marsha:
>>> Wonder if this is true? If so, I might think evolution hiccupped. I
> miss
>>> Krimel too; he was fun to argue with. He had that 'because I say so'
>>> attitude that drove me crazy. I was beginning to remember arguments I
> had
>>> had with my father, a Prussian father by the way. As if whatever Krimel
>>> said should be presumed to be true because he said it. Hahahahaha. Or
>>> because "science" says so, and maybe a few decades ago because "the
> bible"
>>> says so. Hahahahaha OMG, or "the professors" say so. Quality is there
>>> for first-hand tasting.
>>>
>>>
>>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>>> Do I think Quality is moral? I image it is totally moral. When I am not
>>> separate from Quality it feels to be, without exception, totally moral.
>>>
>>> [Joe]
>>> If quality is metaphysical everything, How do you separate from quality?
>>>
>>> Marsha:
>>> Only by a misconception, by illusion, by insanity. I make this mistake
>> all
>>> the time, and am always very relieved to find my way home again.
>>>
>>>
>>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>>> What do I think about the MoQ Evolution? I think it is an elegant part
> of
>>> the RMP's metaphysics. Beautiful in its modern intellectual
> explanation..
>>> Coherent might be a good word. But, Joe, I am not inspired by it on a
>>> mystical level. For me the Net of Jewels model is better, where the
>> reason
>>> for a pattern's existence is dependent on the existence of every other
>>> pattern throughout all four levels (conventional reality). Here's where,
>>> not two truths, but the example of two maps might apply.
>>>
>>> [Joe]
>>> In the past I have used the word ³mystical² for the perception of
>> undefined
>>> dynamic quality. For whatever reason I have come to see that I perceive
>>> ³mystical as a ³weasel² word, and I avoid it.
>>>
>>> Marsha:
>>> Should I write something like: from the transcendent perspective? Any
>> word
>>> would be a very poor choice compared to the experience. What word makes
>> you
>>> comfortable? Or maybe you question my ability to go beyond thoughts and
>>> words? Saying anything at all will sound preposterous to one who hasn't
>>> recognized such an experience, and that such an experience is quite
>> natural.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the word 'god' is a weasel word, I suppose assigning the label
>>> 'weasel' is relative.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>>> It is also for the mystical experience, which should be common, not rare,
>>> that I am led to want a meta-level. Intellectual patterns seem to block
>> the
>>> mystical experience. If the MoQ view was seen above the Intellectual
>> Level
>>> it would be understood as fully and knowingly participating in the
>>> conventional/patterned reality (all four levels) and also maintaining a
>>> direct relationship with Ultimate/Dynamic Reality.
>>>
>>> [Joe]
>>> Imho the two levels above the intellectual level are levels only in
>>> awareness: higher emotional level, higher intellectual level.
>>>
>>> Marsha:
>>>> From my experience I cannot say your opinion is wrong. But it seems to
> me
>>> the label 'higher emotional' and 'higher intellectual' comes after the
>>> experience which is not a wordy experience.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>>> The Subject/Object point-of-view with its me, me, me is insane. And as
>> far
>>> as I'm concerned the Intellectual Level is subject/object through and
>>> through. Even within the new Quantum understanding, it is administered
>>> steeped in objectivity and often laced with materialism. I have sent for
>> a
>>> book, "Understanding the Uncertainty principle" to see what it says, but
> I
>>> don't have much hope. There are scientists that have jumped the fence
> and
>>> running free, but they do not seem to be considered mainstream. Of
> course
>> I
>>> am not a Quantum insider, and know what I know as someone not
>> scientifically
>>> or mathematically trained, just someone peering in a window.
>>>
>>> [Joe]
>>> My experience with the word Quantum was Latin, in conjunction with the
>> word
>>> Tantum.
>>> Tantum/quantum, As much, so much.
>>>
>>> Marsha
>>> Words! Words! I'm so sick of words! Aren't these lyrics to a song?
>>>
>>>
>>> [Joe]
>>> Esoteric literature proposes seven levels for evolution using the musical
>>> scale as an example. I am not sure but I think the musical scale was
>>> attributed to Pythagoras. I did not understand what I found in a Google
>>> search.
>>>
>>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>>> I love it when you write of seven levels. I read a bit about harmony
> when
>> I
>>> was studying classical guitar, and I always think you are talking about
>>> harmony and making beautiful music.
>>>
>>> [Joe]
>>> AW GI
>>>
>>> Is that an accusation/insult (like Krimel's) for not being objective? Is
>> it
>>> wrong to seek beauty and harmony before objectivity? Do you know
> Ishtar's
>>> dance of the seven veils (the heroines journey)? From Wikipedia:
>>>
>>> "The Dance of the Seven Veils is also thought to have originated with the
>>> myth of the goddess Ishtar and the god Tammuz of Assyrian and Babylonian
>>> lore. In this myth, Ishtar decides to visit her sister, Ereshkigal, in
> the
>>> underworld. When Ishtar approaches the gates of the underworld, the
>>> gatekeeper lets Ishtar pass through the seven gates, opening one gate at
> a
>>> time. At each gate, Ishtar has to shed an article of clothing. When she
>>> finally passes the seventh gate, she is naked. In a rage, Ishtar throws
>>> herself at Ereshkigal, goddess of the underworld; but Ereshkigal orders
>> her
>>> servant Namtar to imprison Ishtar and unleash sixty diseases against
> her..
>>> After Ishtar descends to the underworld, all sexual activity ceases on
>>> earth. Papsukkal, the messenger-god, reports the situation to Ea, king of
>>> the gods. Ea creates a eunuch called Asu-shu-namir and sends him to
>>> Ereshkigal, telling him to invoke "the name of the great gods" against
> her
>>> and to ask for the bag containing the waters of life. Ereshkigal, having
>>> promised to grant Asu-shu-namir's wish, is enraged when she hears the
>>> demand, but she has to give him the water of life. Asu-shu-namir
> sprinkles
>>> Ishtar with this water, reviving her. Then Ishtar passes back through the
>>> seven gates, getting one article of clothing back at each gate, and is
>> fully
>>> clothed as she exits the last gate. Her release is, however, granted only
>>> under the condition that she find someone to replace her in the
>> underworld.
>>> Tammuz, Ishtar's husband, has been making merry while she has been dead,
>> and
>>> so the goddess sends Tammuz to Ereshkigal."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Marsha
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>>>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph
> Maurer
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 3:13 PM
>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/21/09 1:38 PM, "Joseph Maurer" <jhmau at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [Marsha:]
>>>> Evolution is a high quality intellectual (scientific) static pattern of
>>>> value concerned with the order of existence.
>>>>
>>>> [Marsha:]
>>>> Holy Moly, I'm from Michigan too. Small world. My favorite place was
>> Irish
>>>> Hills where my Oma lived on one of the Twin Lakes.
>>>>
>>>> [Marsha:]
>>>> Reality? I was in tears of joy with the best understanding of REALITY I
>>>> ever heard spoken by Lila: "...I'm whatever your questions turn me
> into..
>>> You
>>>> don't see that. It's your questions that make me who I am. If you think
>>> I'm
>>>> an angel then that's what I am. If you think I'm a whore then that's
> what
>>> I
>>>> am. I'm whatever you think. And if you change your mind about me then I
>>>> change too. So whatever Richard tells you, it's true. There's no way he
>>> can
>>>> lie about me." - Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no
> way
>>>> you can lie about it, and if you change your understanding of reality,
>>> then
>>>> reality changes too.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Marsha and all,
>>>>
>>>> [Joe]
>>>> I have changed the name of the subject to MOQ EVOLITION
>>>>
>>>> [Joe]
>>>> Pirsig proposes four levels of evolution: inorganic, organic, social,
>>>> intellectual. He also says that the penetration of the egg cell wall,
> by
>>>> the sperm cell, for reproduction is dynamic. DQ/SQ. Morality is based
> on
>>>> evolution. The difference in levels from lower to higher is the basis
>>> for
>>>> a moral judgment.
>>>>
>>>> [Joe]
>>>> Bo proposes a meta-level is above intellect. I am not sure.
>>>>
>>>> [Joe]
>>>> Esoteric literature proposes seven levels for evolution using the
> musical
>>>> scale as an example. I am not sure but I think the musical scale was
>>>> attributed to Pythagoras. I did not understand what I found in a Google
>>>> search.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
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