[MD] Moq Evolution
Joseph Maurer
jhmau at sbcglobal.net
Sun Jul 26 13:20:37 PDT 2009
On 7/26/09 1:13 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
Thanks Marsha! The best to you!
Joe
> Joe,
>
> I have no idea where my question about your use of chaos came from. I
> couldn't find you using it either. I might have overlaid one post onto your
> post and come up with an imaginary word sighting, not as romantic as
> spotting a red-winged blackbird. More like an imaginary number: the
> square-root-of-minus-one? Too many words I maybe need a few days of
> silence.
>
> How many acts to strip away the concept of self: power, hubris, loss,
> death, descent, resurrection, joy. (Just a guess.) I wonder what color are
> the seven veils? I can imagine them as flowing silk with threads of gold.
> It would not be difficult to create a symbolic enactment of the dance. Do
> you have seven objects that should be buried?
>
> Sorry about the moment of chaos, I claim it for my own. A moment is not very
> long.
>
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer
> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 3:17 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>
>
>
>
> On 7/24/09 1:36 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer
>> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 3:58 PM
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/23/09 10:31 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings Joe,
>>>
>>> You mentioned the relationship between seven and the esoteric traditions.
>>> This story of Ishtar/Inanna's descent is very old.
>>>
>>> You've used the word 'chaos', and I wonder what it means really? Is it
>> just
>>> an objective word for fear? Deep fear? Does it have an aspect of time
>>> associated with it? Is it experienced for a moment, an hour, a day, week
>> or
>>> year? Forever? Is it being unable to control the past and the future?
>>> Unpredictability? Love? Life? Is evolution a pattern of
> predictability?
>>> (Also associating neural chemistry with emotions?) I'm trying to guess
>>> here, it would be better if you explained it. What is chaos?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Marsha,
>>
>> The only description for ³chaos² that I can come up with is DQ in
>> evolution.
>>
>> Bo used a good example : The ocean has finite and transient forms (waves
> and
>> currents) but is absolute and immutable in itself because waves and
> currents
>> are water too. Thanks Bo!
>>
>>
>> Greetings Joe,
>>
>> DQ as chaos? I don't get that kind of vibration at all. To me DQ
>> (experience sans the intellect's chatter) is peace and silence, and
>> sometimes joy.
>>
>>
>> Marsha
>>
> Hi Marsha,
>
> I blew a fuse, and will be doing some lateral drifting on MOQ evolution.
>
> I looked in the archives to see where I used the word "chaos". I didn't
> find anything. Maybe you could refresh my memory.
>
> The only urge I have is How would I choreograph the dance of the 7 veils?
>
> It would have to have at least two, maybe three acts!
>
> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 6:30 PM
>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/23/09 12:19 AM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> [Marsha]
>>> "The Dance of the Seven Veils is also thought to have originated with the
>>> myth of the goddess Ishtar and the god Tammuz of Assyrian and Babylonian
>>> lore. In this myth, Ishtar decides to visit her sister, Ereshkigal, in
> the
>>> underworld. When Ishtar approaches the gates of the underworld, the
>>> gatekeeper lets Ishtar pass through the seven gates, opening one gate at
> a
>>> time. At each gate, Ishtar has to shed an article of clothing. When she
>>> finally passes the seventh gate, she is naked. In a rage, Ishtar throws
>>> herself at Ereshkigal, goddess of the underworld; but Ereshkigal orders
>> her
>>> servant Namtar to imprison Ishtar and unleash sixty diseases against her.
>>> After Ishtar descends to the underworld, all sexual activity ceases on
>>> earth. Papsukkal, the messenger-god, reports the situation to Ea, king of
>>> the gods. Ea creates a eunuch called Asu-shu-namir and sends him to
>>> Ereshkigal, telling him to invoke "the name of the great gods" against
> her
>>> and to ask for the bag containing the waters of life. Ereshkigal, having
>>> promised to grant Asu-shu-namir's wish, is enraged when she hears the
>>> demand, but she has to give him the water of life. Asu-shu-namir
> sprinkles
>>> Ishtar with this water, reviving her. Then Ishtar passes back through the
>>> seven gates, getting one article of clothing back at each gate, and is
>> fully
>>> clothed as she exits the last gate. Her release is, however, granted only
>>> under the condition that she find someone to replace her in the
>> underworld.
>>> Tammuz, Ishtar's husband, has been making merry while she has been dead,
>> and
>>> so the goddess sends Tammuz to Ereshkigal."
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Marsha and all,
>>>
>>> No, I don¹t see AW GI as being an accusation/insult. I see it as the
>>> open-eyed, child wonder, ³I didn¹t know that!, but I can learn²
>>>
>>> Imho I can look at things, in general, from two points of view. How
> does
>>> it manifest? Is it active, passive or neutral? Or in what order does it
>>> manifest? The first question looks at reality as one, made up of 3
> forces,
>>> Active, Passive, or Neutral. Tamuz making merry.
>>>
>>> Or I can look at things as being in some order, like evolution, the
>> musical
>>> scale, seven intervals with two of them being of different value.
>>> Undefined, with no clothes on, is the MOQ description of order. Not
>>> knowing the joy of order, sex goes away and is merely a party.
>>>
>>> Ishtar¹s order is a higher consideration than Tamuz¹ manifestations. A
>>> story of life!
>>>
>>> The point of view is secondary to, in what order of evolution does it
>>> reside?
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>>>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph
> Maurer
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 8:00 PM
>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/22/09 1:45 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Joe,
>>>>
>>>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>>>> An interesting aspect of your posts is that I am never sure how to
>>> respond,
>>>> so I wing it.
>>>>
>>>> [Joe]
>>>> I miss Krimel¹s spontaneity. ³wing it² I can hear him guffawing about
>>>> brining chickens to mind. In a heavy rainstorm chickens will look up,
>>> open
>>>> their beaks, and drown.
>>>>
>>>> Marsha:
>>>> Wonder if this is true? If so, I might think evolution hiccupped. I
>> miss
>>>> Krimel too; he was fun to argue with. He had that 'because I say so'
>>>> attitude that drove me crazy. I was beginning to remember arguments I
>> had
>>>> had with my father, a Prussian father by the way. As if whatever Krimel
>>>> said should be presumed to be true because he said it. Hahahahaha. Or
>>>> because "science" says so, and maybe a few decades ago because "the
>> bible"
>>>> says so. Hahahahaha OMG, or "the professors" say so. Quality is
> there
>>>> for first-hand tasting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>>>> Do I think Quality is moral? I image it is totally moral. When I am
> not
>>>> separate from Quality it feels to be, without exception, totally moral.
>>>>
>>>> [Joe]
>>>> If quality is metaphysical everything, How do you separate from quality?
>>>>
>>>> Marsha:
>>>> Only by a misconception, by illusion, by insanity. I make this mistake
>>> all
>>>> the time, and am always very relieved to find my way home again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>>>> What do I think about the MoQ Evolution? I think it is an elegant part
>> of
>>>> the RMP's metaphysics. Beautiful in its modern intellectual
>> explanation..
>>>> Coherent might be a good word. But, Joe, I am not inspired by it on a
>>>> mystical level. For me the Net of Jewels model is better, where the
>>> reason
>>>> for a pattern's existence is dependent on the existence of every other
>>>> pattern throughout all four levels (conventional reality). Here's
> where,
>>>> not two truths, but the example of two maps might apply.
>>>>
>>>> [Joe]
>>>> In the past I have used the word ³mystical² for the perception of
>>> undefined
>>>> dynamic quality. For whatever reason I have come to see that I perceive
>>>> ³mystical as a ³weasel² word, and I avoid it.
>>>>
>>>> Marsha:
>>>> Should I write something like: from the transcendent perspective? Any
>>> word
>>>> would be a very poor choice compared to the experience. What word makes
>>> you
>>>> comfortable? Or maybe you question my ability to go beyond thoughts and
>>>> words? Saying anything at all will sound preposterous to one who hasn't
>>>> recognized such an experience, and that such an experience is quite
>>> natural.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think the word 'god' is a weasel word, I suppose assigning the label
>>>> 'weasel' is relative.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>>>> It is also for the mystical experience, which should be common, not
> rare,
>>>> that I am led to want a meta-level. Intellectual patterns seem to block
>>> the
>>>> mystical experience. If the MoQ view was seen above the Intellectual
>>> Level
>>>> it would be understood as fully and knowingly participating in the
>>>> conventional/patterned reality (all four levels) and also maintaining a
>>>> direct relationship with Ultimate/Dynamic Reality.
>>>>
>>>> [Joe]
>>>> Imho the two levels above the intellectual level are levels only in
>>>> awareness: higher emotional level, higher intellectual level.
>>>>
>>>> Marsha:
>>>>> From my experience I cannot say your opinion is wrong. But it seems to
>> me
>>>> the label 'higher emotional' and 'higher intellectual' comes after the
>>>> experience which is not a wordy experience.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>>>> The Subject/Object point-of-view with its me, me, me is insane. And as
>>> far
>>>> as I'm concerned the Intellectual Level is subject/object through and
>>>> through. Even within the new Quantum understanding, it is administered
>>>> steeped in objectivity and often laced with materialism. I have sent
> for
>>> a
>>>> book, "Understanding the Uncertainty principle" to see what it says, but
>> I
>>>> don't have much hope. There are scientists that have jumped the fence
>> and
>>>> running free, but they do not seem to be considered mainstream. Of
>> course
>>> I
>>>> am not a Quantum insider, and know what I know as someone not
>>> scientifically
>>>> or mathematically trained, just someone peering in a window.
>>>>
>>>> [Joe]
>>>> My experience with the word Quantum was Latin, in conjunction with the
>>> word
>>>> Tantum.
>>>> Tantum/quantum, As much, so much.
>>>>
>>>> Marsha
>>>> Words! Words! I'm so sick of words! Aren't these lyrics to a song?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Joe]
>>>> Esoteric literature proposes seven levels for evolution using the
> musical
>>>> scale as an example. I am not sure but I think the musical scale was
>>>> attributed to Pythagoras. I did not understand what I found in a Google
>>>> search.
>>>>
>>>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>>>> I love it when you write of seven levels. I read a bit about harmony
>> when
>>> I
>>>> was studying classical guitar, and I always think you are talking about
>>>> harmony and making beautiful music.
>>>>
>>>> [Joe]
>>>> AW GI
>>>>
>>>> Is that an accusation/insult (like Krimel's) for not being objective?
> Is
>>> it
>>>> wrong to seek beauty and harmony before objectivity? Do you know
>> Ishtar's
>>>> dance of the seven veils (the heroines journey)? From Wikipedia:
>>>>
>>>> "The Dance of the Seven Veils is also thought to have originated with
> the
>>>> myth of the goddess Ishtar and the god Tammuz of Assyrian and Babylonian
>>>> lore. In this myth, Ishtar decides to visit her sister, Ereshkigal, in
>> the
>>>> underworld. When Ishtar approaches the gates of the underworld, the
>>>> gatekeeper lets Ishtar pass through the seven gates, opening one gate at
>> a
>>>> time. At each gate, Ishtar has to shed an article of clothing. When she
>>>> finally passes the seventh gate, she is naked. In a rage, Ishtar throws
>>>> herself at Ereshkigal, goddess of the underworld; but Ereshkigal orders
>>> her
>>>> servant Namtar to imprison Ishtar and unleash sixty diseases against
>> her..
>>>> After Ishtar descends to the underworld, all sexual activity ceases on
>>>> earth. Papsukkal, the messenger-god, reports the situation to Ea, king
> of
>>>> the gods. Ea creates a eunuch called Asu-shu-namir and sends him to
>>>> Ereshkigal, telling him to invoke "the name of the great gods" against
>> her
>>>> and to ask for the bag containing the waters of life. Ereshkigal, having
>>>> promised to grant Asu-shu-namir's wish, is enraged when she hears the
>>>> demand, but she has to give him the water of life. Asu-shu-namir
>> sprinkles
>>>> Ishtar with this water, reviving her. Then Ishtar passes back through
> the
>>>> seven gates, getting one article of clothing back at each gate, and is
>>> fully
>>>> clothed as she exits the last gate. Her release is, however, granted
> only
>>>> under the condition that she find someone to replace her in the
>>> underworld.
>>>> Tammuz, Ishtar's husband, has been making merry while she has been dead,
>>> and
>>>> so the goddess sends Tammuz to Ereshkigal."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marsha
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>>>>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph
>> Maurer
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 3:13 PM
>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/21/09 1:38 PM, "Joseph Maurer" <jhmau at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> [Marsha:]
>>>>> Evolution is a high quality intellectual (scientific) static pattern of
>>>>> value concerned with the order of existence.
>>>>>
>>>>> [Marsha:]
>>>>> Holy Moly, I'm from Michigan too. Small world. My favorite place was
>>> Irish
>>>>> Hills where my Oma lived on one of the Twin Lakes.
>>>>>
>>>>> [Marsha:]
>>>>> Reality? I was in tears of joy with the best understanding of REALITY
> I
>>>>> ever heard spoken by Lila: "...I'm whatever your questions turn me
>> into..
>>>> You
>>>>> don't see that. It's your questions that make me who I am. If you think
>>>> I'm
>>>>> an angel then that's what I am. If you think I'm a whore then that's
>> what
>>>> I
>>>>> am. I'm whatever you think. And if you change your mind about me then I
>>>>> change too. So whatever Richard tells you, it's true. There's no way he
>>>> can
>>>>> lie about me." - Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no
>> way
>>>>> you can lie about it, and if you change your understanding of reality,
>>>> then
>>>>> reality changes too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Marsha and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> [Joe]
>>>>> I have changed the name of the subject to MOQ EVOLITION
>>>>>
>>>>> [Joe]
>>>>> Pirsig proposes four levels of evolution: inorganic, organic, social,
>>>>> intellectual. He also says that the penetration of the egg cell wall,
>> by
>>>>> the sperm cell, for reproduction is dynamic. DQ/SQ. Morality is based
>> on
>>>>> evolution. The difference in levels from lower to higher is the basis
>>>> for
>>>>> a moral judgment.
>>>>>
>>>>> [Joe]
>>>>> Bo proposes a meta-level is above intellect. I am not sure.
>>>>>
>>>>> [Joe]
>>>>> Esoteric literature proposes seven levels for evolution using the
>> musical
>>>>> scale as an example. I am not sure but I think the musical scale was
>>>>> attributed to Pythagoras. I did not understand what I found in a
> Google
>>>>> search.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marsha
>
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