[MD] Reductionism

[blue-jay maple]

Ian:
> Jeez - as I say, life's too short.

Nick:
What's up dude?  Why are you saying that?  I answered your questions 
and you came back said I brought up a trespasser when I didn't.  I'm pointing 
out a simple fact of who brought it up.  I'm not coming after you.  You need 
to chill dude.  You asked questions and I answered them.  I mean what do you 
want to know.  Why are you getting reactionary all of sudden?  What's up?

Nick




> > Ian:
> >> Nick, the repelling trespassers was your example, not mine.
> >
> > Nick:
> > I quote you from below:
> >
> > "The point is which better or worse patterns are
> >> >> allowed to govern them - hit a physical trespasser over the head with
> >> >> a physical club."
> >
> > You brought that up.
> >
> > Ian:
> >> You are complicating - confounding - the picture much too fast.
> >> Everything from property rights to rape, retribution and hanging all
> >> in one para.
> >
> > Nick:
> > Sorry.  I'll slow down.  My fault.  :-)
> >
> > Ian:
> >> The answer cannot be that three letters (NAP) is an intellectual
> >> pattern therefore it's the answer to all those issues. Patterns (even
> >> intellectual patterns) are not created equal.
> >
> > Nick:
> > Oh but it is.  It has been thoroughly put through the ringers in numerous,
> > countless contrived situations.  Numerous papers are written about it.  Books
> > discuss it.  This is not a new concept and has been around for centuries.
> >
> > Ian:
> >> The onus, remember. What is your version of NAP, how does it relate to
> >> MoQ and what is better about it ? If your message is the revelation
> >> that freedom is a good thing, then that is not new to anyone. The
> >> devil is in the detail.
> >
> > Nick:
> > Yes, the devil is in the detail.  Freedom is a good thing.  But 
> > what does liberty
> > actually mean?  It has a definition.  It has had one for 
> > centuries.  It is the
> > absence of initiating physical coercion.  It is a humanly applied 
> > understanding.
> >
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> >
> >> Ian
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:44 PM, blue-jay maple<libertytree at mail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Ian:
> >> >> I still think the onus is on you to describe / explain / justify more
> >> >> on NAP... I'm with Marsha there Nick.
> >> >
> >> > Nick:
> >> > I'm willing.
> >> >
> >> > Ian:
> >> >> One substantive MoQish point.
> >> >> Yes obviously all physical actions (physical force & coercion) happen
> >> >> in the physical layer. The point is which better or worse patterns are
> >> >> allowed to govern them - hit a physical trespasser over the head with
> >> >> a physical club. Most higher level patterns involve realization in
> >> >> lower levels - thoughts in the brain, brain in the animal, animal made
> >> >> of physical material. The patterns cross levels and have elements
> >> >> (sub-patterns) in more than one level. Not all patterns are created
> >> >> equal.
> >> >
> >> > Nick:
> >> > In justice "intent" can't be realized by others.  You could ask
> >> > the person and you
> >> > can infer a lot with scienctific tools to investigate a crime,
> >> > let's say, but what was
> >> > going on in the mind of the person can't be 100% substantiated.
> >> >  Cause the person
> >> > could lie.
> >> > Now in your example of a trespasser being hit over the head with
> >> > a club.  This
> >> > is understood as inquiring into repercussions against the
> >> > violator of property rights. I would need
> >> > to know more context to understand if the property owner was
> >> > justified in hitting
> >> > the trespasser over the head with a club.  Proportionality is an
> >> > important consideration
> >> > in what in law is called repercussion.  So if the property owner
> >> > went too far, then he
> >> > or she could be brought under criminal charges as well.
> >> >  Repercussions, admittedly,
> >> > are not as yet universally known.  But proportionality is
> >> > helpful.  Yet let's take the
> >> > case of a rapist.  Does one rape back in proportionality to
> >> > achieve repercussion?  No,
> >> > obviously not.  There's a spectrum to this that is currently in
> >> > debate.  On the one hand
> >> > there are those that discuss retribution so this may include
> >> > hanging the criminal.  I find
> >> > that to be too much.  I lean towards the other side that includes
> >> > restitution and ostracation
> >> > if necessary.  Also this goes as far as ridding prisons quite
> >> > possible in both cases, but
> >> > it's still a debatable issue.
> >> >
> >> > Ian:
> >> >> The higher patterns have "rights" over the lower ones - which limit
> >> >> their freedoms.
> >> >> We can debate the vagueries of exactly which kinds of patterns we are
> >> >> actually talking about in any given case, but the principle is MoQ
> >> >> 101.
> >> >
> >> > Nick:
> >> > Well, the NAP is an intellectual pattern.  It is an intellectual
> >> > principle.  Is that
> >> > what you want to know?  So are natural rights.  They are
> >> > intellectual abstractions
> >> > that have been reasoned to be universally applicable.  Pirsig
> >> > brought these up
> >> > in Lila I believe.  Freedom of speech, innocent until proven 
> >> guilty, etc...
> >> >
> >> > Nick
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
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> >>
> >
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