[MD] Pirsig and Socratic method (a question for Ant)

[MarshaV]

Yep, this post is unreadable...


At 10:03 AM 6/17/2009, you wrote:
>Anthony, Â Thank you for the response, 
>Interesting how both the Zen approach and the 
>Socratic approach aim for similar ends using 
>similar techniques.I understand, per the 
>Phaedrus that Socratic method is more along the 
>lines of the ability to argue pros and cons to 
>arrive at a new understanding of the question 
>and the exposition of prejudices rather than an 
>actual answer to it. Perhaps I over reach. One 
>wonders at the symbolism in Plato's Phaedrus 
>where the discusion takes place  by a stream 
>under a plane tree and a chaste tree, an 
>indiginous Greek tree and one indiginous of the 
>east. Many thanks, and in fact it does change 
>how one interprets his work. Best wishes -Ron 
>________________________________ From: Ant 
>McWatt <antmcwatt at hotmail.co.uk> To: moq discuss 
><moq_discuss at moqtalk.org> Sent: Wednesday, June 
>17, 2009 9:18:46 AM Subject: Re: [MD] Pirsig and 
>Socratic method (a question for Ant) Ron, The 
>primary literary device that Pirsig 
>intentionally used for both ZMM and LILA was the 
>Zen koan or puzzle rather than the Socratic 
>method (of question and answers).  However, 
>judging from the relevant section from my PhD 
>pasted below, you can certainly see a 
>correlation in Dynamic Quality and static 
>quality to Anaximander's ideas about the apeiron 
>(unlimited) and the peiron (limited). Best 
>wishes, Anthony www.robertpirsig.org As a 
>development of Zen Buddhism, it’s critical to 
>realise that the MOQ can be perceived as 
>reflecting the circle of enlightenment found in 
>Buddhist thought where an adherent (such as a 
>young monk) begins at ‘the world of form’ 
>(typically perceived at this juncture 
>dualistically, as in SOM) and proceeds to an 
>understanding of ‘formlessness’ (termed 
>‘Dynamic Quality’ by Pirsig) to obtain 180 
>degrees enlightenment.  The student then 
>returns with this new knowledge into ‘the 
>world of form’ to achieve full (or 360 
>degrees) enlightenment or Buddhahood (in which 
>Dynamic Quality is perceived via the static 
>quality patterns).   “In Buddhism, the world 
>can be described in terms of ‘The First 
>Principle’, sometimes called 
>‘Formlessness’ or ‘nothingness’ or 
>‘freedom’ which parallels the treatment of 
>Quality in ZMM.  The world can also be 
>described in terms of ‘The Second Principle’ 
>of ‘Form’ or ‘order’ which parallels the 
>treatment of quality in LILA.  In Buddhism, 
>form and formlessness, freedom and order, 
>co-exist.”  (Pirsig 1999a) In other words, 
>one should not be seeking to arrive at just 
>recognising Dynamic Quality but to a more 
>profound understanding: ‘The teaching of 
>emptiness is actually an affirmation of the 
>dynamic interconnectedness of all things.’ 
>(Burton, 2001, p.178)Â  The treatment of Quality 
>through ZMM (its formlessness) and LILA (its 
>forms) can, when taken together, be read as 
>reflecting the circle of enlightenment;Â  both 
>texts are constructed as Western versions of a 
>Zen koan  (literally puzzling story or 
>question)Â  in order to assist a more 
>Western-orientated mind achieve enlightenment. 
>“LILA was originally conceived of as a 
>case-book in philosophy.  ‘Does Lila have 
>Quality?’ is its central question.  It was 
>intended to parallel the ancient Rinzai Zen 
>koans (which literally means ‘public 
>cases,’) and in particular, Joshu’s 
>‘Mu,’ which asks, ‘Does a dog have a 
>Buddha nature?’.”  (Pirsig 2002d)  > Date: 
>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:49:44 -0700 > From: 
>xacto at rocketmail.com > To: 
>moq_discuss at moqtalk.org > Subject: [MD] Pirsig 
>and Socratic method (a question for Ant) > > Dr 
>Mcwatt, >Â  A question has emerged (for myself) 
>in regard to the literary device Mr. Pirsig > 
>chose (if any) to illuminate his thoughts about 
>quality to the reader. > It seems to me that he 
>uses Socratic method and Maieutics. > If this is 
>the case, and Mr. Pirsig did intentionally use 
>this method, > It would change how his works are 
>perceived ( for my own interpretation) > and 
>others I would imagine. > > The linkage with 
>these schools of though to Orphism and 
>Pythagoreanism > as it relates to "Anaximander's 
>ideas about the apeiron and > the peiron, the 
>unlimited and limited" are uncanny. > > Thank 
>you for your time > -Ron > 
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