[MD] Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan (another question for Ant)

[X Acto]

Gav,
Research it, surprisingly, they are very similar. I welcome any of you to
dig up some reference to the contrary, it would make an interesting
discussion.
-Ron





________________________________
From: gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:51:13 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan (another question for Ant)


sorry to be so rude,
but surely the two are not the same - the socratic method is essentially one of questioning such that the quastionee reaches a logical impasse borne of their own answers - in the koan one can transcend the logical impasse.




--- On Wed, 24/6/09, X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:

> From: X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com>
> Subject: [MD]  Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan (another question for Ant)
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Wednesday, 24 June, 2009, 1:41 AM
> Anthony,
> 
>  I assert the idea that RMP was in fact using Socratic
> method, for he was using
> the literary device of the Koan, they are one in the same
> device. East and West
> Philosophy are united in the utilization of it.
> 
> I feel this has a huge impact on the understanding of the
> MoQ.
> 
> Do you see the same?
> (comparisons below)
> 
>  “LILA was originally conceived of as a case-book in
> philosophy.  ‘Does Lila
>  have Quality?’ is its central question.  It was
> intended to parallel the
>  ancient Rinzai Zen koans (which literally means ‘public
> cases,’) and in
>  particular, Joshu’s ‘Mu,’ which asks, ‘Does a dog
> have a Buddha nature?’.”
>    (Pirsig 2002d)
> 
> Koan:
> From wiki-
>  kōan  is a story, dialogue, question, or statement in
> the history and lore of Zen Buddhism, generally 
> containing aspects that are inaccessible to rational
> understanding, yet may be accessible to intuition.
> English-speaking non-Zen practitioners sometimes use kōan
> to refer to an unanswerable question or a 
> meaningless statement. However, in Zen practice, a kōan is
> not meaningless, and teachers often do 
> expect students to present an appropriate response when
> asked about a kōan. Even so, a kōan is not 
> a riddle or a puzzle.[1] Appropriate responses to a kōan
> may vary according to circumstances; 
> different teachers may demand different responses to a
> given kōan, and a fixed answer cannot be 
> correct in every circumstance.
> A kōan or part of a kōan may serve as a point of
> concentration during meditation and other activities, 
> often called "kōan practice" (as distinct from "kōan
> study", the study of kōan literature). Generally, 
> a qualified teacher provides instruction in kōan practice
> to qualified students in private. In the 
> Wumenguan (Mumonkan), public case #1 ("Zhaozhou's Dog"),
> Wumen (Mumon) wrote "...concentrate yourself 
> into this 'Wu'...making your whole body one great inquiry.
> Day and night work intently at it. Do not 
> attempt nihilistic or dualistic interpretations."[3]
> Arousing this great inquiry, or "Great Doubt" 
> is an essential element of kōan practice.
> 
> Socratic method:
> From wiki-
> 
> According to W. K. C. Guthrie's The Greek Philosophers,
> while sometimes erroneously believed to be 
> a method by which one seeks the answer to a problem, or
> knowledge, the Socratic method was actually 
> intended to demonstrate one's ignorance. Socrates, unlike
> the Sophists, did believe that knowledge 
> was possible, but believed that the first step to knowledge
> was recognition of one's ignorance. 
> Guthrie writes, "[Socrates] was accustomed to say that he
> did not himself know anything, and that 
> the only way in which he was wiser than other men was that
> he was conscious of his own ignorance, 
> while they were not. The essence of the Socratic method is
> to convince the interlocutor that whereas 
> he thought he knew something, in fact he does not."
> Socrates generally applied his method of examination to
> concepts that seem to lack any concrete 
> definition; e.g., the key moral concepts at the time, the
> virtues of piety, wisdom, temperance, 
> courage, and justice. Such an examination challenged the
> implicit moral beliefs of the interlocutors, 
> bringing out inadequacies and inconsistencies in their
> beliefs, and usually resulting in puzzlement 
> known as aporia. 
> 
> Application:
> (1) Kōan is a Japanese rendering of the Chinese term
> (公案), transliterated kung-an (Wade-Giles) or gōng'àn 
> (Pinyin). Chung Feng Ming Pen (中峰明本 1263-1323)
> wrote that kung-an is an abbreviation for kung-fu an-tu 
> (公府之案牘, Pinyin gōngfǔ zhī àndú, pronounced
> in Japanese as ko-fu no an-toku), which referred to a 
> "public record" or the "case records of a public law
> court"
> 
> 
> (2) Traditionally, the casebook method is coupled with the
> Socratic method in American law schools. 
> For a given class, a professor will assign several cases
> from the casebook to read, and may also 
> require students to be familiar with any notes following
> those cases. In class, the professor will 
> ask students questions about the assigned cases to
> determine whether they identified and understood 
> the correct rule from the case, if there is one — in
> certain heavily contested areas of the law, 
> there will not be any one correct rule.
> 
> 
>       
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