[MD] Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan (another question for Ant)

gav gav_gc at yahoo.com.au
Wed Jun 24 14:25:34 PDT 2009 

hey ron,
you know i think you are probably on to something there. 
more similar than different i would say after now thinking about it and reading what you posted.
cheers
gav

--- On Thu, 25/6/09, X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:

> From: X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MD] Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan (another question for Ant)
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Thursday, 25 June, 2009, 1:24 AM
> Gav,
> If by logical impasse a new understanding is gained, how do
> they differ?
> Do'nt they both make us question our static values? 
> 
> you are not being rude
> 
> -Ron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:51:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan
> (another question for Ant)
> 
> 
> sorry to be so rude,
> but surely the two are not the same - the socratic method
> is essentially one of questioning such that the quastionee
> reaches a logical impasse borne of their own answers - in
> the koan one can transcend the logical impasse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Wed, 24/6/09, X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com>
> > Subject: [MD]  Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan
> (another question for Ant)
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Received: Wednesday, 24 June, 2009, 1:41 AM
> > Anthony,
> > 
> >  I assert the idea that RMP was in fact using
> Socratic
> > method, for he was using
> > the literary device of the Koan, they are one in the
> same
> > device. East and West
> > Philosophy are united in the utilization of it.
> > 
> > I feel this has a huge impact on the understanding of
> the
> > MoQ.
> > 
> > Do you see the same?
> > (comparisons below)
> > 
> >  “LILA was originally conceived of as a case-book
> in
> > philosophy.  ‘Does Lila
> >  have Quality?’ is its central question.  It was
> > intended to parallel the
> >  ancient Rinzai Zen koans (which literally means
> ‘public
> > cases,’) and in
> >  particular, Joshu’s ‘Mu,’ which asks, ‘Does
> a dog
> > have a Buddha nature?’.”
> >    (Pirsig 2002d)
> > 
> > Koan:
> > From wiki-
> >  kōan  is a story, dialogue, question, or statement
> in
> > the history and lore of Zen Buddhism, generally 
> > containing aspects that are inaccessible to rational
> > understanding, yet may be accessible to intuition.
> > English-speaking non-Zen practitioners sometimes use
> kōan
> > to refer to an unanswerable question or a 
> > meaningless statement. However, in Zen practice, a
> kōan is
> > not meaningless, and teachers often do 
> > expect students to present an appropriate response
> when
> > asked about a kōan. Even so, a kōan is not 
> > a riddle or a puzzle.[1] Appropriate responses to a
> kōan
> > may vary according to circumstances; 
> > different teachers may demand different responses to
> a
> > given kōan, and a fixed answer cannot be 
> > correct in every circumstance.
> > A kōan or part of a kōan may serve as a point of
> > concentration during meditation and other activities,
> 
> > often called "kōan practice" (as distinct from
> "kōan
> > study", the study of kōan literature). Generally, 
> > a qualified teacher provides instruction in kōan
> practice
> > to qualified students in private. In the 
> > Wumenguan (Mumonkan), public case #1 ("Zhaozhou's
> Dog"),
> > Wumen (Mumon) wrote "...concentrate yourself 
> > into this 'Wu'...making your whole body one great
> inquiry.
> > Day and night work intently at it. Do not 
> > attempt nihilistic or dualistic interpretations."[3]
> > Arousing this great inquiry, or "Great Doubt" 
> > is an essential element of kōan practice.
> > 
> > Socratic method:
> > From wiki-
> > 
> > According to W. K. C. Guthrie's The Greek
> Philosophers,
> > while sometimes erroneously believed to be 
> > a method by which one seeks the answer to a problem,
> or
> > knowledge, the Socratic method was actually 
> > intended to demonstrate one's ignorance. Socrates,
> unlike
> > the Sophists, did believe that knowledge 
> > was possible, but believed that the first step to
> knowledge
> > was recognition of one's ignorance. 
> > Guthrie writes, "[Socrates] was accustomed to say that
> he
> > did not himself know anything, and that 
> > the only way in which he was wiser than other men was
> that
> > he was conscious of his own ignorance, 
> > while they were not. The essence of the Socratic
> method is
> > to convince the interlocutor that whereas 
> > he thought he knew something, in fact he does not."
> > Socrates generally applied his method of examination
> to
> > concepts that seem to lack any concrete 
> > definition; e.g., the key moral concepts at the time,
> the
> > virtues of piety, wisdom, temperance, 
> > courage, and justice. Such an examination challenged
> the
> > implicit moral beliefs of the interlocutors, 
> > bringing out inadequacies and inconsistencies in
> their
> > beliefs, and usually resulting in puzzlement 
> > known as aporia. 
> > 
> > Application:
> > (1) Kōan is a Japanese rendering of the Chinese term
> > (公案), transliterated kung-an (Wade-Giles) or
> gōng'àn 
> > (Pinyin). Chung Feng Ming Pen (中峰明本
> 1263-1323)
> > wrote that kung-an is an abbreviation for kung-fu
> an-tu 
> > (公府之案牘, Pinyin gōngfǔ zhī àndú,
> pronounced
> > in Japanese as ko-fu no an-toku), which referred to a
> 
> > "public record" or the "case records of a public law
> > court"
> > 
> > 
> > (2) Traditionally, the casebook method is coupled with
> the
> > Socratic method in American law schools. 
> > For a given class, a professor will assign several
> cases
> > from the casebook to read, and may also 
> > require students to be familiar with any notes
> following
> > those cases. In class, the professor will 
> > ask students questions about the assigned cases to
> > determine whether they identified and understood 
> > the correct rule from the case, if there is one —
> in
> > certain heavily contested areas of the law, 
> > there will not be any one correct rule.
> > 
> > 
> >       
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