[MD] Why the quality of the modern world is no good.

[plattholden at gmail.com]

Hello Ron,
Yes, my idea of beauty is the same as the author's of the essay I 
referred to, i.e., a universal, transcendental concept as in Truth, 
Goodness and Beauty. The question, "What is beautiful?" is the same 
as "What is Quality?" 

Platt



On 25 Jun 2009 at 9:24, X Acto wrote:

> Hello Platt,
> You use "beauty" in a rather general and vague way in this context,
> the question raised is "what is beautiful?" if, what Marsha sees as
> beautiful is in agreement with what her culture finds beautiful, then
> it may be said that she builds beauty into her work.
> 
> You speak as if you seem to have a definite idea of what beauty is
> and that beauty is a universal truth.
> 
> -Ron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: "plattholden at gmail.com" <plattholden at gmail.com>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:44:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Why the quality of the modern world is no good.
> 
> Hi Marsha,
> 
> Because the individual working on her motorcycle is influenced by her 
> culture. If the culture supports beauty, her work is more likely to be 
> beautiful. But, Pirsig is right. Changes in the cultural begin with an 
> individual, and someone has to be first. 
> 
> Platt
> 
> 
> On 25 Jun 2009 at 10:16, MarshaV wrote:
> 
> > Greetings Platt,
> > 
> > Why is this concern, making beauty a cultural matter, of interest, 
> > when from ZMM:
> > 
> > "I think that if we are going to reform the world, and make it a 
> > better place to live in, the way to do it is not with talk about 
> > relationships of a political nature, which are inevitably dualistic, 
> > full of subjects and objects and their relationship to one another; 
> > or with programs full of things for other people to do. I think that 
> > kind of approach starts it at the end and presumes the end is the 
> > beginning. Programs of a political nature are important end products 
> > of social quality that can be effective only if the underlying 
> > structure of social values is right. The social values are right only 
> > if the individual values are right. The place to improve the world is 
> > first in one's own heart and head and hands, and then work outward 
> > from there. Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of 
> > mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think 
> > that what I have to say has more lasting value."
> >      (ZMM,Chapter 25)
> > 
> > 
> > Marsha
> > 
> 
> > At 08:46 AM 6/25/2009, you wrote:
> > >All:
> > >
> > >In Chapter 22 of Lila, Pirsig laments the lack of quality in modern life:
> > >
> > >"In the time that Phaedrus grew up, intellect was dominant over
> > >society, but the results of the new social looseness weren't turning out as
> > >predicted. Something was wrong. The world was no doubt in better
> > >shape intellectually and technologically but despite that, somehow, the
> > >"quality" of it was not good. There was no way you could say why this
> > >quality was no good. You just felt it."
> > >
> > >An essay by Roger Scruton entitled "Beauty and Desecration"
> > >explains as well as anything I've read "why this quality was no good."
> > >The following excerpt suggests where to look for the answer:
> > >
> > >"But why is beauty a value? It is an ancient view that truth, goodness
> > >and beauty cannot, in the end, conflict. Maybe the degeneration of
> > >beauty into kitsch comes precisely from the postmodern loss of
> > >truthfulness, and with it the loss of moral direction. That is the message
> > >of such early modernists as Eliot, Barber and Stevens, and it is a
> > >message we need to listen to."
> > >
> > >Scruton traces the change in art from a goal of attaining beauty "as a
> > >way in which lasting moral and spiritual values acquire sensuous form"
> > >to art that aimed to "disturb, subvert, or transgress moral certainties."
> > >
> > >Scruton concludes, "We should take a lesson from this kind of
> > >(artistic) desecration: in attempting to show our human ideals are
> > >worthless, it shows itself to be worthless. And when something shows
> > >itself to be worthless, it is time to throw it way."
> > >
> > >Seems to me that is also a message from the MOQ.
> > >
> > >For Scruton's essay, please go to:
> > >
> > >http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_2_beauty.html
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >Platt
> 
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> 
> 
> 
>       
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/