[MD] Wranglin' with Rigel

Sun Jun 28 07:04:05 PDT 2009

Platt,

You are so very, very wise.

Marsha

At 08:45 AM 6/28/2009, you wrote:
>John C:
>
>I may be wrong but I get the impression you may be trying to "convert" your
>sheetrock friend to your way of thinking, risking becoming  Rigel-like
>yourself, "Full of great ways for others to improve without any expense to
>themselves." The main message of the MOQ for me is simply that the world is
>a moral order, easily shown by the fact that to live is to value. But, that
>doesn't mean we should all have the same ideas about what's worthwhile and
>what isn't. As Pirsig explained in this SODV paper:
>
>"The reason there is a difference between individual evaluations of quality
>is that although Dynamic Quality is a constant, these static patterns are
>different for everyone because each person has a different static pattern of
>life history. Both the Dynamic Quality and the static patterns influence his
>final judgment. That is why there is some uniformity among individual value
>judgments but not complete uniformity."
>
>The highest quality stance I can offer to other people is to confirm their
>unique being without trying to convince them to be otherwise, so long as
>they do not threaten or do physical harm to others.
>
>But there I go, up on my own soapbox. Try as I might I cannot escape from
>making value judgements. Maybe we're all condemned to being Rigel-like. That
>being the case, please ignore this post.
>
>Platt
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>On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 2:15 AM, John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 4:54 PM, <plattholden at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > John Carl:
> > >
> > > I would merely point out to the guy that he considers his ideas are right
> > > and therefore have quality. He will also have to admit his work has
> > > quality.
> >
> >
> > He is very sure of this himself and needs little confirmation.  Think back
> > to the original Rigel.  If the captain had stroked his ego in this way,
> > would it have served the pursuit of Quality or the elimination of Samsara
> > to
> > tell Rigel that all his moralistic conceptions and lifework were worthy?
> >  Would that have helped him see the need for overcoming his own somist
> > tendency? He was pretty sure of his own values already.
> >
> > My sheetrocking ex-lawyer does believe in Quality.  He believes in it as
> > something which doesn't need explanation.  He believes in it as something
> > which he possesses in his own hip pocket and is ready to flick it at the
> > inferior species of not-graduates around him.  Admittedly understandable,
> > but a trap in its own way.
> >
> >
> >
> > > As for a koan, how about, "Life is a series of value choices
> > > between the no choices of birth and death." Or, "It's impossible to live
> > > without having assumptions about what is good."
> > >
> >
> >
> > Its an impossible task.  Koans work when they are vested in some authority
> > which gives them enough heft to be taken seriously.  I could ask my local
> > bar friends about the sound of a tree falling the in forest when nobody was
> > around to hear it, and I guarantee you this, nobody would take my question
> > seriously enough to gain any enlightenment from the question.  Context
> > within a teaching is everything.  That's why Pirsig had to create all that
> > novel.  Just to get enough emotional commitment in the story, to get the
> > point of the koan across.  Otherwise all is lost in the great trivial wash
> > of the modern blare.
> >
> > Lately, the dialogue has been less emotional and rancorous.  After the
> > initial challenge of his worldview, he seems more comfortable with my
> > thinking.  Where we are really hung up is on the general area of "does a
> > dog
> > have a buddha nature".  Only we are taking this at his pace and from his
> > world view - which is biblical.  Where I've challenged him is in the idea
> > that "nature is fallen".  The christian doctrine of original sin.  I say
> > this concept is unbiblical and patently false.  "Sin" can only occur in the
> > intellect - the flesh is just the flesh.  He tells me that he can prove I'm
> > wrong from the bible.  I don't think he can so we're waiting for monday.
> >
> > :)
> >
> > J Carl
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Platt
> > >
> > >
> > > On 27 Jun 2009 at 9:51, John Carl wrote:
> > >
> > > > So lately I've been helping a neighbor/friend with a little
> > sheetrocking
> > > in
> > > > the morning.  He needs a hand hanging the lid.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > He's an interesting guy.  A retired attorney of around my age (50ish)
> > who
> > > > has been living here on the Ridge for about 10 years.  A relative
> > > newcomer
> > > > to most of the folks around here, but a hard charging kind of guy who
> > is
> > > > real involved as a community leader - on the county planning
> > commission,
> > > > hosted politcal klatsches for a supervisor candidate (who won) and his
> > > wife
> > > > is the head of the school board where his and my son attend.  We
> > carpool
> > > a
> > > > lot, through the yuba canyon.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So we had them for dinner a month or so back, I'd told him about ZAMM,
> > he
> > > > likes to discuss ideas and so he took it, read it, and  I asked him
> > about
> > > it
> > > > first day at work.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > He didn't like it.  Said it was full of crap he'd heard before.  So I
> > > asked,
> > > > "You actually read the whole thing?"  He didn't really answer me then
> > but
> > > > instead launched into a tirade about the reality of gravity.   So I
> > > figure
> > > > he must have gotten stuck at that point, but the fact that he couldn't
> > > just
> > > > admit that he rejected a book that he hadn't had the gumption to finish
> > > was
> > > > kinda weird and as later clues came together I understood that there is
> > > this
> > > > attorney-training thing happening in argumentation that is all about
> > the
> > > > win, baby.  They never concede a point and if any niggling
> > > misconstruation
> > > > is possible, they vehemently deny and oppress any point you're making
> > as
> > > > well.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It can be a disconcerting style to deal with, to say the least.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Other similarities between my friend and Rigel, besides the community
> > > leader
> > > > and being attorneys, was the stiff morality.  For those who observe a
> > > strict
> > > > victorian morality there seems to be an intensely emotional attachment
> > to
> > > > "what they believe".  In the middle of a rational discussion, he'd have
> > > to
> > > > stop and beg me to stop what we are doing (working on his project) so
> > > that
> > > > he could vehemently make his points. Usually points about free markets,
> > > > immorality of socialism, immorality of modernism and so forth.     He's
> > a
> > > > religious man, but has doubts about the bible.  He didn't want to
> > discuss
> > > > religion, but used the philosophy gained from a lifetime exposure (his
> > > folks
> > > > were missionaries)  to religion and the bible to justify "his" world
> > > view.
> > > > When I pointed out that the self was an intellectual construct, he went
> > > > ballistic on me, but then later contradicted himself and conceded that
> > > > point, sort of.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Afterwards, I thought about the captain's encounter with Rigel and
> > > compared
> > > > our two experiences.  I too felt helpless in the face of SOMish
> > > certainty.
> > > > One difference is that that the Captain headed on down the river and
> > out
> > > of
> > > > Rigel's orbit forever.  I went back to work the next morning and morn
> > > after
> > > > that and all next week and I'll be carpooling and neighbors forever.  I
> > > have
> > > > some potential in the continuity of the relationship to get through to
> > > this
> > > > guy.   But how?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > How does a budding bodhisattva construct a koan for a Rigelian
> > > sheetrocker?
> > > > I must admit, he's the best sheetrock cutter I've ever worked with.
> >  The
> > > > house we're working on has many complicated angles and light fixtures.
> > >  He
> > > > takes great pride in getting every single joint and cuttout exact.
> > >  Unlike
> > > > the normal sheetrocker who cuts around outlets a little large, he cuts
> > > them
> > > > out a little small so that he can fine tune with his keyhole saw on
> > > > installation.  He admits he is working to impress the tapers.  But of
> > > course
> > > > who he's really working for is to impress himself.  I've known a lot of
> > > > tapers and they're not usually the kind of guys who's approval would
> > > raise
> > > > anyone's status.  Still, there is a craft involved in getting all the
> > > lines
> > > > perfect.  I don't call it art, but its something.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Transferring the MoQ.  That is the issue, eh?  How?  And maybe, why?
> >  Is
> > > it
> > > > my own egoistic desire to "convert" that is at the heart of my concern?
> > >  Am
> > > > I trying to impress the kind of guy who's approval would raise my
> > status?
> > > > Or am I striving to liberate a sentient being from samsara and lead
> > them
> > > to
> > > > enlightenment?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If I choose, I choose the latter.  But now we are back to the how.  How
> > > to
> > > > construct a koan.  How to lead out in a dialogue.  How to deal with
> > > > self-satisfied SOM.  An ongoing challenge.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ------------
> > > > Doing Good IS Being
> > > > ------------
> > >
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ------------
> > Doing Good IS Being
> > ------------
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_____________

"He who neglects the present moment throws away all he has."
   (Friedrich von Schiller)