[MD] The Quality/MOQ dichotomy.

[skutvik at online.no]

Krimel (DMB unflattering mentioned)

On 4 Mar. u wrote:

> FYI, that crunching sound you heard a couple of days ago was dmb,
> handing you your ass.

I can't match your rough colloquials, but never mind, if only the 
MOQ supports my reasoning I'm happy. 

> And yet you still don't get it... DUH! Look, what happens before the
> intellect kicks in and concepts are formed. 

Your attitude regarding the MOQ is still a mystery, like Ham you 
make some perfunctory gestures to be allowed to partake in the 
discussion, but remarks like this betrays you. "Intellect kicks in and 
concepts are formed" Is this supposed to be the level? It sounds 
more like SOM's internal "mind-intellect". Look, there were people 
on this planet for thousands upon thousands of years before the 
intellectual level and when they spoke words were these 
"intellectual concepts" ... before intellect?.Seems like the true 
nature of the said level never will make it through. Well from you it 
can't be expected but DMB?

> Concepts and ideas are not "things." They are distilled from our
> perceptions of the immediate moment. They don't fit into containers
> they do not have desires and they do not compete with each other. 

Right, at the intellectual level concepts aren't "things" but some 
subjective reflection of the "things" they denote. What they are 
distlled  from I leave to you to ponder, the point is that intellect is a 
static level that emerged out of the static social level that surely 
"had" language but did not see it this way, that knew no 
subjective/objective distinction. The MOQ is no intellectual pattern 
(rather the other way round) so it does not have any notion of the 
language as subjective in contrast to the "things" it reflect or - God 
forbid - that pre-concept=DQ and concepts=SQ, this is a travesty,.      
 
> [Bo]
> Plato was one of SOM's founding fathers and his dichotomy was 
> Ideas vs Appearance, the former the eternal element (to become 
> objective) while the latter was the fleeting element (to become 
> subjective). And when one equalizes "Ideas" with Static  and 
> "apparent" with Dynamic one is completely lost.  I rather believe that
> the "Summary" Pirsig compared Quality to Plato's eternal-to-
> become-objective and MOQ to the fleeting-to-become-subjective, but
> also this is deeply wrong and in contrast to Phaedrus original
> insight. 
 
> [Krimel]
> One more time, slowly: Ideas are fixed constant eternal this is
> Static, Bo. 

Slowly yourself: In ZAMM P. points Plato out as a major figure in 
the evolution of SOM that began as search for eternal principles 
that - with Plato - had evolved in the Idea/Appearance dichotomy, 
the former eternal, the latter transient. Through many twists and 
turns this evolved into what Pirsig called  SOM (sometimes 
mind/matter) and what MOQ's Dynamic/Static Quality is supposed 
to replace.

> The immediate present is changing slipper, unpredictable on this side
> of the pond we call that Dynamic. Nothing it lost here. 

The term "eternal" may superficially resemble "static", but to 
equate "transient" with "dynamic" is far from the MOQ idea. Worse 
it become if/when objective=static and subjective=dynamic. How 
lost is it possible to be?  That you who don't know or care for the 
MOQ is forgivable but DMB?       

> I went over this about three times yesterday in different ways. What
> you are having trouble with here is the version simplified so that
> Poincare's six year old could understand it. Quality is the dynamic
> ever changing immediate continuous present. Concepts are fix, discrete
> and static.

Static Quality is Quality too FYI. 

But say, are "concepts" the same as language or have i missed 
something. If so is there anything pre- or non-conceptual  in this 
world?  That is if language is seen in the somish way as all or 
nothing at all. Isn't the pointing out of a "pre-conceptual, immediate 
..etc. conveyed by language? I thought only Marsha was ... enough 
to buy a non-language reality ...again if language is seen the said 
way!

Bo