[MD] Back in SOM

[MarshaV]

At 07:34 AM 3/17/2009, you wrote:
>Greetings to you Marsha
>
>15 March:
>
>I had written:
> > >The intellectual level will take the shape of S/O aggregate  anywhere
> > >and everywhere. The alleged non-S/O intellect that the Upanishads
> > >philosophy spells in the Oriental Culture was also a  search for
> > >truths beyond the Veda mythology, but it never developed the way it
> > >did in the West to become a static level, before they moved on to
> > >some Quality-like stage. Why there is some likeness, and why Pirsig
> > >spotted it, but he should have dropped it, now the Zen is a drag.
>
> > What does 'now the Zen is a drag.' mean?  How is Zen a drag?
> > Of course your opinion is good for you, but I find the Wisdom, both
> > logic and the compassion, within Buddhism very meaningful.  It has
> > enhanced my understanding of the MOQ.
>
>Zen is a drag due to the infamous pre-concept/conceptual
>"metaphysics" the latter-day Pirsig has superimposed on the
>MOQ. This was not part of his original insight which was pre-
>intellect/intellect (intellect=S/O). About something ahead of
>subjects and objects being pre-conceptual was William James'
>idea and something DMB had peddled ever since he began his
>acadmical career.

Greetings Bo,

I sometimes think just a slight shift and everything would fall into 
place, perfect understanding, but then I am a dreamer.


>Marsha listen: If concepts (language-conveyed ideas)  are
>regarded as secondary to a real world out there we subscribe to
>SOM's "objective over subjective" party. The MOQ is a total break
>with SOM and has relegated it the role of its own intellectual level
>and consequently the "pre-concept/concept" has become a static
>intellectual pattern. Language and/or language-conveyed ideas
>don't play any  particular role except as a social tool that intellect
>inherited.

I am sooo unqualified to speak about Buddhism.  I have no teacher 
correcting my interpretations and I fear that I may make a mess of 
it.  But it seems to me Buddhism has long, long ago identified the 
flaws in the subject/object point-of-view.

For me, the Ultimate/conventional, pre-conceptual/conceptual, 
Dynamic-Quality/static-quality are not one over the other, but they 
are mutually interdependent.  You can't have one without the 
other.  DQ and sq are mutually interdependent.  I don't think DQ is 
out there and sq the in-here subjective, but that the sq experience 
is overlaid onto the DQ experience which gives rise to the conception 
that there is self and objects. DQ is sq, and sq is DQ.

RMP has said that the Social and Intellectual levels can be 
interpreted at mind (conceptual symbols).  Most symbols are of the 
social-level variety, like language.  Some like the Pythagorean 
theorem, music and  freedom are the intellectual-level variety 
because they have no correspondence in the world, but are a strictly 
abstract concepts.

As far as the MOQ, there is a sq-moq and a DQ-MOQ.  Everybody is 
correct.  The sq-moq is all written by RMP on the subject and all we 
on the MD endlessly discuss, and then there is the DQ-MOQ 
experience.  The sq-moq version is the intellectual-level version, 
the DQ-MOQ is the insight which looks down onto all the levels from 
the mountain top.  (Ooops.  It's hard not to want to be poetic.  I'm 
erasing as much as I'm writing.)  The DQ-MOQ is the moon, the sq-moq 
is the pointing to the moon.  -  Buddhism has social-level patterns 
and intellectual-level patterns, but Prajnaparamita (Perfect Wisdom) 
is the insight which looks down onto all conventional reality (all 
levels and all patterns) from the mountain top.

Well that's my East-West solution.  Any questions?


Masrsha








>The Buddhist compassion is great, but when it tries to make it
>across to the S/O-steeped Western World it has to apply it's (the
>West's) "intellectual" S/O matrix and creates metaphors like the
>moon-finger.
>
>Bo
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Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
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