[MD] Quality and Free Will

[Joseph Maurer]

On Sunday 29 March 2009 10:15 PM Marhsmit writes:

> This is a good place to start.  The tool I am using is dialogue.
> 
> Perhaps it is the burden of scientific training that I carry, but I
> have trouble with an evolutionary law of order.  In physics we learn
> that the tendency of everything is towards greater disorder or
> increased entropy.  If we apply Quality only to life, then there is
> an increasing disorder as more species are being formed.  If what
> MOQ means is order in terms of complexity, then maybe I can
> understand, at least for a part of what I experience.
>  Evolution, in my mind, implies a tendency.  Such as the evolution
> of gas from liquid when heat is applied.  Or the evolution of life
> to match the evolution of life (or natural selection).  It is this
> tendency of Quality that I have difficulty with.  That there is
> somehow a hierarchy in Quality.  I don't believe that I am in denial
> of the non-duality of all, and believe consciousness (for lack of a
> better word) to be theexpression of all.
>  What I do have trouble with is the notion that Quality is changing
>  over time. Perhaps the word evolution is not the correct one to use
> in terms of Quality, at least for my understanding.
> 
> I would like to carry MOQ beyond the authors' start, which I believe
> is the purpose of this forum.  Pirsig has planted a seed.  This
> concept of evolution requires a bit more work in my mind.
> 
> Thanks

Hi Markhsmit,

Dialogue puts the focus of my attention on logic.  I make up the rules for
my logic?  Is love logical?  Is hitting a baseball traveling 100 MPH
logical?  Is getting pregnant logical?  Is blinking my eyes logical?  Is
liking ice cream logical?  Are yes/no logical?  I have been put in jail.  No
logic for me in some laws!  Socrates does not like logic!  He drank the
Hemlock and died!  Did he abhor mathematics?  I don¹t think so.  There is
something more.

Evolution is not logical.  Evolution is an illogical order.  Freedom is not
logical.  Something is undefined in dialogue, my experience, my
suppositions.  Undefined/Defined, DQ/SQ what is logic?  Definition!  I have
been wrong!  I have been right!

Joe

On 3/29/09 10:15 PM, "markhsmit" <markhsmit at aol.com> wrote:

> 
> On Mar 29, 2009, at 12:54:30 PM, "Joseph Maurer" <jhmau at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Saturday 28 March 2009 9:04 PM Markhsmit writes to Joe:
> 
> Hi Joe,
>>  
>> I'm still having difficulty understanding the evolution of Quality.
>> This would imply to me that new Quality is being formed, Quality
>> that did not exist before. Has Quality evolved in the last 5000
>> years? I am seriously asking this because it does not fit with my
>> current understanding, which may be erroneously Eastern (like the
>> Tao) at this point.. I am rereading Lila which may help me out. My
>> conception of harmony is the temporary coalescence of Quality. This
>> coalescence and dissipation is ongoing, an ebb and flow kind of
>> thing, rather than growth.
>>  
>> Thanks,
> 
> Hi Markhsmit, and All,
> 
> I will ask you a question. What tool are you using to try to understand the
> evolution of quality? SOM posits a distinction between body and mind,
> between real existence and intentional existence. Evolution of quality is
> not understandable using a metaphysics based on a mind/body division.
> 
> MOQ proposes an evolutionary law of order. Each manifestation in evolution
> combines DQundefined/SQdefined. The existence of the evolutionary order is
> real, not the supposed intentional existence created by a mind to give
> reality to an idea of order. An inorganic rock exists in a different
> evolutionary order from an organic flower. Time is not creative in
> cataloguing change, e,g, give it time. Space does not create dimensions.
> 
> These are my thoughts as I discuss a metaphysics of quality, MOQ.
> 
> Joe


> Thanks Joe,
> 
> This is a good place to start.  The tool I am using is dialogue.
> 
> Perhaps it is the burden of scientific training that I carry, but I
> have trouble with an evolutionary law of order.  In physics we learn
> that the tendency of everything is towards greater disorder or
> increased entropy.  If we apply Quality only to life, then there is
> an increasing disorder as more species are being formed.  If what
> MOQ means is order in terms of complexity, then maybe I can
> understand, at least for a part of what I experience.
>  Evolution, in my mind, implies a tendency.  Such as the evolution
> of gas from liquid when heat is applied.  Or the evolution of life
> to match the evolution of life (or natural selection).  It is this
> tendency of Quality that I have difficulty with.  That there is
> somehow a hierarchy in Quality.  I don't believe that I am in denial
> of the non-duality of all, and believe consciousness (for lack of a
> better word) to be theexpression of all.
>  What I do have trouble with is the notion that Quality is changing
>  over time. Perhaps the word evolution is not the correct one to use
> in terms of Quality, at least for my understanding.
> 
> I would like to carry MOQ beyond the authors' start, which I believe
> is the purpose of this forum.  Pirsig has planted a seed.  This
> concept of evolution requires a bit more work in my mind.
> 
> Thanks
> Willblake2
> 
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/