[MD] Joseph Campbell

[markhsmit]

Hi Arlo,

Thank you for your detailed response.  According to your post, PC
includes everything that promotes vocal respect for another.
It is hard to argue with that definition.  Protecting minorities is
certainly not something I am against.

Examples of where PC goes overboard?  Sure, there are plenty.  Recently,
in Boston I believe, firemen took a test to determine who should be 
promoted.  Because blacks and hispanics did not achieve promotion
through it, the test was dropped.  I would assume that the test was to 
determine the caliber of men protecting our homes from fires.  PC snuck
in and may have reduced that caliber.

The claim that you were not patriotic if you were against the war was PC
at work.  The claim that you were against medical research if you supported
the stem cell ban was PC at work.  The claim that you were against gays
by being against gay marriage was PC at work.  The claim that you were
racists if you didn't want to open the borders was PC at work.  The claim
that you were against blacks if you thought there was reverse discrimination
 was PC, Jesse Jackson plays PC like no other.  The claim that Obama can do no
wrong because he is the first black president is PC at work.  The claim that
the next person on the supreme court should be a woman is PC at work.

PC undermines the whole notion of equal rights, the freedom of religion,
the protection of family rights, the right to privacy, the right to fire
a woman if she doesn't show up to work consistently because she
is taking care of a child, the right to hire and fire people because of 
their color, the right to air ones views on the inferiority of another race,
the stopping proven success in choosing to pay more attention to plane 
passengers  who are arabic, the right to protest taxes because you
are not patriotic enough, the right to disagree with a vocal minority
who controls the majority, our freedom of speech.  

I could go on.

It is the excess of PC which bothers me.  I know you are fully on
board with this trend, Arlo, but please do not denigrate your intelligence
by reverting to examples of nonsense.  Think before you write.
If you claim it is the current PC mania which accomplished all of 
our societal advances in terms of respect and tolerance, then you
are talking about something completely different.  What was PC
called 50 years ago?

In my opinion, the current PC craze is not very PC.

Cheers,

Willblake2

On May 5, 2009, at 7:23:17 AM, "Arlo Bensinger" <ajb102 at psu.edu> wrote:
[Willblake]
I suppose a definition of PC is in order, but I think you guys can 
get my drift. There is nothing wrong with common decency and 
respect. It is when it gets blown up into a demonstration of who 
cares more, that I see selfish self righteousness appear.

[Arlo]
I said last time, that raging against "PC" is hollow. "PC" 
encompasses everything from not referring to the mentally-handicapped 
as "retards", blacks as "niggers", or "sanitation engineers" as 
"garbagemen", to the vitriolic assaults on the Dixie Chicks and Bill 
Maher, to redefining "torture" as "interrogation techniques" to (as 
Krimel pointed out) calling wife beating and child abuse out into the 
open. So what ARE the particular example of PC you are against, and 
which are those you support?

[Willblake]
I have very personal experience with the disabled (PC), and am 
heavily involved in the autism community. Believe me, the attitude 
has not changed even though there are claims to the contrary.

[Arlo]
When I was in tenth grade, a mildly mentally-handicapped kid joined 
our class. He had certain needs that prevented him from attending all 
the "regular" classes with us, but he was in quite a few. He lasted 
less than a month. His parents had to pull him out of school and 
actually *move* to another school district because he would come home 
in tears at being made fun of, most of which were echoes of "stupid 
retard" as he walked down the hall. I can only imagine what he felt, 
what his parents must have felt, but the school did nothing back 
then. No consequences. One of the last days he was in the school, 
someone took a permanent magic marker and wrote "retard" on the back 
of his denim coat. Because that destroyed "property", the kid who did 
it got three days of detention.

I don't doubt that the reality of school life is wholly without such 
harassment. But I do think its improving. Today, at several of the 
schools I have work in, mentally-handicapped children are given more 
respect, and harassment against them is treated seriously. Will there 
always be small-minded pricks who get their jollies yelling "retard" 
to one of these kids? Sure. No doubt. No one thinks these cultural 
attitudes can change overnight. But I do see progress, Willblake, so 
I'm going to have to disagree with you on that.

[Willblake]
People are looking to the rules of respect rather than to respect 
itself. Not walking the talk. All sides are guilty. People on the 
right, on the left, on the top, on the bottom.

[Arlo]
I'm not sure what you mean exactly, other than perhaps saying that 
"respect" has origins outside its cultural definitions. When the 
Bible says, "Honor your mother and father" (honor=respect, no?) it is 
an attempt to codify the cultural norms people are expected to abide 
by. And while secular humanism has stripped organized religion of its 
power, it was not that long ago that people were killed for violating 
its laws of who to respect and how.

But you are right. We as a culture are growing more xenophobic, more 
fear based, more hate based than I have seen in my lifetime. Modern 
dialogue is about demonizing and villifying all who disagree with 
you, so it is little wonder to me that we as a people respect less 
and less those who are different from ourselves.

[Willblake]
I lived in Hawaii for a number of years, and felt extreme racism 
towards me, being a white Haole. It wasn't from the names I was 
called, so much as the underlying treatment.

[Arlo]
There are many forms of racism quite prevalent today, and while some 
like the KKK have moved underground (mostly), others are more open. 
The left seems incapable of seeing that racism against whites does 
indeed exist, and is a problem that must be addressed.

[Willblake]
But I gained respect, not by whining about things, but by working at it.

[Arlo]
First, who's whining? And also NOT working at it? I think that kid 
back in my tenth grade class would've been perfectly justified in 
"whining" about the abhorrent treatment he received. And I, 
personally, am not sure what he could have done to "work on it". He 
was a kind child, always nice and respectful to everyone. When anyone 
did bother to talk with him, he came alive with happiness. What on 
earth could he have done to "gain respect"?

[Willblake]
We live in a society where words have replaced action. Where the 
color of your skin is of higher value than the ability you have.

[Arlo]
Well that works both ways. When we truly get to the point of 
colorblind society, I'll be as happy as you. But what if you never 
were able "work at it" to gain the respect you obviously did end up 
receiving? What if your entire life no matter what you did, you knew 
you'd be denied opportunity after opportunity simply because those 
with power saw you as "inferior" due to the color of your skin? That 
is the reality of many in this country, and I wish it was as easy of 
saying "stop whining and work at it". They are.

[Willblake]
One can argue using extreme absurd examples, and no, just because I 
think PC has gone too far does not mean that I am going to go kill 
some wetbacks (PC explanation: expletive intended for effect).

[Arlo]
And I too think PC often goes too far. But the very notion that 
"wetbacks", "niggers" and "retards" are "extreme absurd examples" 
only proves that PC has worked. When I was growing up, they would not 
have been "extreme absurd examples" at all. So, again, progress.

[Willblake]
Be careful that you don't hurt somebody's feelings, if you don't act 
in a PC manner, they might cry, or sue you.

[Arlo]
And again I ask, give me some examples here. What do you, personally, 
have to "be careful" when you say it so as not to hurt someone's feelings?

[Willblake]
If you argue that we are more respectful of each other now, than we 
were 50 years ago, I would say, open your eyes.

[Arlo]
And I'd say open yours. "Beginning in the 1950s, individual Klan 
groups began to resist the Civil Rights Movement by bombing houses in 
transitional neighborhoods and the houses of activists, as well as by 
physical violence, intimidation and assassination. In Birmingham, 
Alabama, during the tenure of Bull Connor, Klan groups were closely 
allied with the police and operated with impunity. There were so many 
bombings of homes by Klan groups that the city's nickname was 
"Bombingham". In states such as Alabama and Mississippi, Klan members 
forged alliances with governors' administrations." (Wikipedia entry "KKK")

You might argue that the racism has simply gone underground, that 
there are still many, many in this country who proclaim their 
superiority over "niggers". And you may be right. A recent Newsweek 
article looked at the resurgence of racial hatred in the "Age of 
Obama" (http://www.newsweek.com/id/195085).

But there are no more bombings. The physical violence and 
intimidation has been reduced. Its progress, even though the 
xenophobes are clutching to their god-given superiority with ever 
last dying breath.

I asked my daughter if she has ever heard any of the 
mentally-handicapped kids in her school referred to as "retards". She 
said very rarely someone will use the word to be funny, but no one 
laughs. Given that this has been only one generation, I'd say that's 
a big improvement.

[Willblake]
So buck up, stop whining, and get a life!

[Arlo]
Would that have been your advice to that child in my tenth grade class?

Finally, you call out people who use PC to force "respect", why not 
call out the xenophobes with the same vigor? Its one thing to say you 
were able to "work at it" and overcome the racism you suffered, but 
that doesn't justify turning a blind eye to the racism itself. Those 
people who treated you as inferior because of the color of you skin 
are evil, and deserve to be called such.



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