[MD] Joseph Campbell

[markhsmit]

Hi Arlo,

Thank you for your responses.

I will follow your guideline and respond point by point, below:

First let me say, that my original email on this subject was a comment
on the current state of Political Correctness as used by both sides.  I
thought I had better look it up to make sure we are speaking about
the same thing.  Wikipedia gives a lengthy treatise on it (perhaps a
bit full of itself), and I am using the term as used in a pejorative sense.
That is as manipulative tool to gain what one wants, used by all sides 
of the political spectrum.


On May 6, 2009, at 7:03:00 AM, "Arlo Bensinger" <ajb102 at psu.edu> wrote:

[WillBlake]
It appears that you believe that social justice (whatever you think 
that may be) should be placed above merit.

[Arlo]
Well you're reducing all of "PC" here to "affirmative action". There 
seems to be concern when a white man is passed over to hire a 
underqualified minority. Is there the same concern when a black man 
is passed over to hire an underqualified white? I'm guessing no, 
since you state that people should have the "right" to hire and fire 
people based on their skin color. I have concerns both ways, and 
would like to hear what solution you think will remedy this

[WB2]
I believe in the power of man and society to evolve into a more tolerant place by
virtue of man being good.  Our society is infantile at best, but can grow.  I believe that
forcing a point of view on such a society  by groups who claim to have the answer
is an artificial means for achieving harmony.  The interfacing of man to man (or woman)
is much more important than creating rules.  At least in the PC field.  The fact that you
have concerns suggests that you believe that a select few should be leading the
masses.  I disagree with this.  If a person is left to his own devices, he will hire the
appropriate person to help him with his business.


[WillBlake]
You feel there is an equation for what is right and what is wrong 
that is based on some obscure PC values.

[Arlo]
Do I? What makes you think this?
[WB2]
What makes me think this is your need to know if I am "right wing" or "left wing".  This
is typical of one who needs a rule book (or equation) to determine if my views
are valid or not.  The current PC crisis (as I see it) requires camps of defined views.
It shouldn't matter what my political leanings are in terms of what I am saying.  If one
leaves his personal views of the other person out, he is able to listen.  Once you 
classify me, it doesn't matter what I say.  Again, this seems to me typical of one
who follows a PC equation.  Perhaps I am not explaining this very well.


[WillBlake]
I'm not sure what book you are getting your instructions from, but I 
would check the author.

[Arlo]
I'm comfortable in my views, and can support them, thank you.

[WB2]
Cool, sometimes being comfortable with your views means you are not willing
to look at the source of your views.  That is all I was suggesting.


[WillBlake]
Your responses seem to border on the extreme and obscene.

[Arlo]
And AGAIN, my point is that they are "extreme" and "obscene" because 
of a PC effort that was GOOD.
[WB2]
And again, if you read my original post, you will understand, that what I was referring to was
the manipulative use of PC by select groups.  What is obscene is that you have no
problem with that, and in fact support it using examples of social improvement to say
that it therefore must all be good.


[WillBlake]
All this talk about retards, as you call them has left a bad feeling 
in my mouth about what exactly is going on in your head.

[Arlo]
Wow. Maybe if you read (or reread) my posts this will be clear, since 
I spell it out at length. And, by the way, I'm going to call you out 
on some horrible rhetoric here. *I* do not call them "retards". And 
you're an ass to suggest so, and I am beginning to wonder what motive 
you could have to attempt to frame it that way. My use of the word 
"retard" is to point out clearly a use of PC that has been good and 
effective. It is also to remind everyone that condemnation of "PC" 
are, as I said multiple times, nothing but manure. Its like railing 
against "taxation" as opposed to "excessive example of taxation" or 
"wrong uses of tax dollars".
[WB2]
Arlo, I have a deep personal experience with retards, possibly beyond your understanding.
What left a bad taste in my mouth is that you would use this example simply for 
argumentative purposes.  It is not your fault, but my reception.  I was expressing how
I felt.  

Again, you are supporting the totality of PC by using some examples of where it
perhaps (in your view) has been successful.  It is similar to your use of extreme examples
to negate that PC can have negative consequences.  I am merely expressing an opinion
on the extent to which PC is being used to fulfill certain agendas.


[WillBlake]
All this fear of Christianity, all it is is faith.

[Arlo]
What about all this fear of blacks, or hispanics, or gays? What about 
all this fear of Muslims? Shouldn't your advice to the Christians be 
to "Buck it up, stop whining and earn your respect!"?
[WB2]
Again, Arlo, you are interjecting flammable subjects just to make a point about something.
These examples don't further your cause, they just demean it.  My advice is the same for the 
Christians.  I thought you were one, with all the talk about helping one's brother.  My mistake.


[WillBlake]
I fear that if I answer your question about the underrepresentation 
of women in the supreme court, you will take offense and begin 
worrying that your values do not match mine.

[Arlo]
Bullshit. If you can back up what you say, why on earth would you 
care about insulting me? We've never met. I have no power over you. 
So go ahead, answer the question.
[WB2]
OK, I do not believe that genitals should play a part in who is recommended to the 
supreme court.  The position is much too important to be abused in that way.
Our president has other ideas, however.


[WillBlake]
This ghost of PC that is looking over your shoulder is making you 
awfully paranoid.

[Arlo]
Actually, at times it makes me very proud, at times it makes me 
chuckle, and at times it makes me cry.
[WB2]
Cool


[WillBlake]
On the contrary, it is the white majority that is the problem, they 
are confused.

[Arlo]
Actually, I think everyone is confused, and that is the problem. Not 
just whites. Not just blacks. Everyone. And at the heart of this is a 
manipulation of xenophobia that fuels people's egos through claims of 
"superiority". Politicos manipulate this xenophobia rather than 
address it. Blacks exploit white-fear, whites exploit black-fear, and 
on and on. The "left" overreaches with "affirmative action" to 
solidify power from xenophobic minorities, the "right" condemns it 
entirely to solidify power from xenophobic whites.
[WB2]
You are exactly right, it is this manipulation that fuels peoples egos.  This exactly
my point about the current political use of PC in our society.  I think your 
impression of the power struggle happening is a bit extreme.  Such extreme
views can create a lot of fear and hatred towards the "right".  Do you think
that perhaps it is misplaced?  Personally, I see no joy in being completely polarized
in my views (except maybe in the abdominal current use of PC)


[WillBlake]
The world is not as evil as you may think it is.

[Arlo]
Never said it was. In fact, I believe I said that its improving, that 
things are getting better.
[WB2]
Perhaps, my belief is that "better" is just a frame of mind.  Such a view as yours does
give hope to one who feels that the way things are right now the should 
get better.  I personally do not share that pessimism.  But that is simply my opinion.


[WillBlake]
About Obama, he is just a president, nothing more, not your king.

[Arlo]
Now what on earth did I say that makes you say this? Indeed, this 
"King" thing is a pretty ridiculous talk-radio denigration. All I 
said about Obama at all is that portraying anyone who supports Obama 
as a socialist or tyrant is an evil form of PC. I never said anything 
at all about treating him like a "king", let alone that I personally 
view him this way. That's quite an evident knee-jerk reaction on your 
part, wouldn't you say?
[WB2]
You are right it is a knee jerk reaction.  Simply my observation of the populace at large.
My apologies.


[WillBlake]
Rather than take assault at my responses point by point (which is 
more like boxing than discussing), could you provide a cogent 
argument as to why current PC dictates are so  much better than the 
way man used to behave towards his fellow man in the past?

[Arlo]
Sure. Already have. Remember the whole "retard" thing?

[WillBlake]
Could you provide me with examples of how exactly this PC brought 
about this change.

[Arlo]
My senior year was the first year we had "sensitivity training" as 
another mentally-challenged kid was brought into the school district. 
The school made it very clear that harassment of this child would not 
be tolerated. Initially, there were one or two incidents. But overall 
he received much better treatment. In classes he was in with everyone 
else, groups were "forced" to work with him. And dare I say he 
actually made a few friends. By the end of the year I dare say that 
many of the kids that were shouting "retard" a few years back were 
actually talking to him as if he were a person. And, as I already 
said, today my daughter tells me that she rarely hears this word used 
towards the mentally-handicapped in her school, and when it is it is 
met with peer scorn. This all happened as the result of efforts by 
administrators, community leaders and teachers to combat fear and 
hatred through the use of PC measures.

As Krimel pointed out, the same efforts have gone a great deal in the 
treatment of blacks. Has it worked in every case? No. Are there still 
those who feel the need to proclaim superiority? Sure. But all-in-all 
I'd say I'd rather be a black man in 2009 than in 1949. And I am sure 
that mentally-challenged kids today fare far far better than those in 
1949, both in measures of respect, tolerance and acceptance.

[WB2]
OK, I stand educated.  I grew up in totalitarian regimes in South America.  This may explain
some of my distaste with the current government trying to corner the banking system,
the automobile market, the health system.  It is all a matter of control, and believing
they can do a better job than a large group of people who are trained in the subject,
and live it day to day.  If we are worried about greed, politicians are very greedy.
If we are worried about honesty, politicians are very dishonest, just look at all 
the appointees that had tax problems.  I we are worried about deception of the
public, politicians are the worst at this.  I have a problem with the government
telling me how I should act, they are a bunch of petty thieves.


[WillBlake]
Maybe a good place to start would be how PC defeated the Klan, your 
suggestion not mine.

[Arlo]
Never said "PC defeated the Klan". In fact, I pointed to an article 
suggesting that hate groups such as the Klan are actually seeing a 
rise in membership since Obama was elected. What I said was that PC 
made the Klan's outright harassment, assaults and humiliation of 
blacks socially unacceptable, and as such has improved the lives of 
blacks considerably. Yes, in many cases the hate went underground. 
But laws ensuring that blacks could drink from the same waterfountain 
as whites (Krim's example) ensure that we as a people are ensuring 
tolerance and respect, even if there will always be some small-minded 
racists who want to profess their superiority.


Again, I am not using the term PC to encompass all of social advancement.  As a child
I was always taught to be nice to children no matter what they looked like, by my 
parents.  True PC should be left to parents, and not put in the governments'
hands.  The government is the epitome of bad PC.

Cheers,
Willblake2



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