[MD] Rhetoric and madness:

MarshaV marshalz at charter.net
Mon May 11 16:12:53 PDT 2009 

Ron,

A very interesting article, thank you for sharing it.


Marsha




At 03:50 PM 5/11/2009, you wrote:
>I agree, in fact it was this part of the paper which pertained to our
>conversation about the origin of subjects and objects.
>"
>By showing that emotions and values inform our perceptions and 
>cognition, Pirsig confronts a basic assumption of our culture. This 
>assumption or prejudice is a ground from which we experience the 
>world, a standing point we assume and from which we adopt our 
>various postures and attitudes. The standing points are fundamental 
>to our ways of seeing, for, like the men in Plato's cave, where we 
>stand strongly influences what we are able to perceive. We may call 
>the various standing points from which we formulate our views 
>"places" from which we think and view the world, the loci which 
>allow us to see certain things and overlook others. [i][4] In 
>Michael Polanyi's terms, these places are the points we think from, 
>and from which we think about other things" (Polanyi 9). The places 
>structure what Pirsig calls our "preintellectual awareness." By 
>attending to the places of our perception, Pirsig illustrates his 
>attempt, not to cut any new channels of consciousness
>  but simply dig deeper into old ones that have become silted with 
> the debris of thought gone stale and platitudes too often repeated" 
> (Pirsig 8). The places we adopt, like our emotions and values, are 
> "modes of persuasion" of which we are often not aware; and like the 
> men in Plato's cave, we must become aware of our limitations if we 
> are to achieve a new way of seeing.
>
>Following Aristotle, we may construe the places which organize our 
>emotional commitments as various interrelated terms."' The specific 
>terms we employ, such as "subject" and object," are taken from 
>delimited realms, while the interrelationships between the terms, 
>which may be independent of any specific contexts, include various 
>modes of identification, opposition or inter-relation. Aristotle 
>sketches in the Categories four modes in which terms may be opposed, 
>such as contraries and as correlatives. Contrary terms like "black" 
>and "white" label things for which the existence of one generally 
>precludes the existence of the other; correlative terms, such as 
>"husband" and "wife," label objects for which the existence of one 
>requires the existence of the other (Aristotle, Categories 31-8). 
>Pirsig emphasizes the importance of our choice of terms and our 
>facility in interrelating them, formulating the operation as the use 
>of a "knife" which slices up and
>  connects our experiences of the world. This knife is "an 
> intellectual scalpel so swift and so sharp you sometimes don't see 
> it moving. You get the illusion that all these parts are just there 
> and are being named as they exist. But they can be named quite 
> differently and organized quite differently depending on how the 
> knife moves" (Pirsig 72). One of Pirsig's tasks, as Chautauqua 
> orator, is to reveal which terms are fundamental in shaping our way 
> of seeing, disclosing their interrelationships, and then 
> demonstrating that they may be interrelated in another manner. By 
> becoming aware of how our commonplaces have led us into our crisis 
> of Reason, we may begin to see their limitations; and, by altering 
> the places, we may potentially disclose a new way of perceiving and 
> functioning in the crisis.
>
>The specific terms Pirsig focuses on are those of "subjectivity" and 
>"objectivity." Our culturally ingrained commonplace is that subjects 
>are contrary to objects; that as feeling beings we are necessarily 
>separated from the world of objective things; that, in Lawrence 
>Rosenfield's phrase, "external and internal reality" are distinct" 
>(Rosenfield 69). Our feelings are seen as private and inward, 
>ultimately incommunicable, and effectively distortions of objective 
>perception. This separation lies at the basis of the dualism of our 
>"two cultures," and of our "dissociation of sensibility." All 
>feeling is taken as irrelevant to understanding the world, and only 
>technological, analytic reason is applicable to controlling the 
>environment. Hence reason is narrowed to logical consistency, and 
>technology, the product of that reason, is depleted of all human 
>values. Technological ugliness is thus not the source of personal 
>fragmentation and alienation; it is
>  correlative with it.
>
>
>________________________________
>
>[i][4] Aristotle distinguishes two dimensions of the "places," the 
>eidai or specific aspect of the places, and the koinoi topoi or 
>common aspect of the places. The former are specific terms in a 
>context, "derived from the propositions relative to a particular 
>species or class of things"; the commonplaces are applicable "to a 
>large number of inquiries of diverse sorts." The Rhetoric of 
>Aristotle, trans., Lane Cooper (New York: D. Appleton, 1932), 1358a 
>17; 1358a 13-14."
>
>  I also thought it pertained to your views on scientists and shamans
>
>but hey, I am what you make me to be , ... I'm just another lila.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
>To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 3:36:44 PM
>Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric and madness:
>
>
>
>There is no Metaphysics of Quality or no hierarchical levels of
>patterns in ZMM.
>
>I love you too Ron.
>
>
>At 03:26 PM 5/11/2009, you wrote:
> >better yet, forget it.
> >
> >I love you Marsha
> >
> >
> >bye!
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> >From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> >To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> >Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 3:20:34 PM
> >Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric and madness:
> >
> >
> >Ron,
> >
> >Where does it pertain to the conversation we were having?  I was
> >defending that patterns in the Intellectual Level were all of the
> >subject/object variety.  So gosh my foot...
> >
> >
> >Marsha
> >
> >
> >At 03:13 PM 5/11/2009, you wrote:
> > >gosh,
> > >I just thought it pertained to the conversation we were having,
> > >I thought Bo might dig it too since it focused on ZMM in
> > >particular.
> > >I just thought it was a good paper to read.
> > >I urged Bo to read it because it was researched
> > >and cited references for their assertions an element
> > >he could stand some brushing up on.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >________________________________
> > >From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > >To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > >Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 2:41:37 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric and madness:
> > >
> > >
> > >Ron,
> > >
> > >Why have you specifically highlighted the need for me to read this
> > >paper?  I really want to know!  You didn't offer it for general
> > >reading, you offered it to Bo and me.  Please explain!
> > >
> > >What is it in this paper, which portion, is suppose to educate me
> > >into the correct MOQ perspective?  Where have I gone wrong?  What
> > >will correct my misguided point-of-view?
> > >
> > >
> > >Marsha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >At 02:29 PM 5/11/2009, you wrote:
> > > >I do not know, I was surfing at lunch and stumbled apon it, I
> > > >thought the paper
> > > >was well researched and rather interesting, finding some inkling
> > > to the author
> > > >is proving difficult and time consuming, perhaps others will have
> > > >luck but well
> > > >worth the read.
> > > >-Ron
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >________________________________
> > > >From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > > >To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > >Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 1:52:59 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric and madness:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Sure Ron,
> > > >
> > > >I will read it, but who is the author?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Marsha
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >At 01:39 PM 5/11/2009, you wrote:
> > > > >A must read, I recomend to Both Marsha and especially Bo.
> > > > >
> > > > >http://www.public.iastate.edu/~consigny/pirsig.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >.
> > > >_____________
> > > >
> > > >Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the
> > stars.........
> > > >.
> > > >.
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
> > >.
> > >_____________
> > >
> > >Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the 
> stars.........
> > >.
> > >.
> > >
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> >.
> >_____________
> >
> >Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
> >.
> >.
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>.
>_____________
>
>Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
>.
>.
>
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.
_____________

Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
.

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