[MD] qUALITY

MarshaV marshalz at charter.net
Wed May 27 12:13:54 PDT 2009 

At 11:16 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote:
>"Quality/DQ is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable."

Ron,

Are you asking me to for rational answers?  You do have your nerve!

ooooooooohhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm


Marsha

>qUESTIONS:
>
>Isn't this a definition?
>
>if Quality is unknowable then Quality does not exist.
>
>if Quality is unknowable then an MoQ is meaningless
>
>But
>
>Pirsig states that everyone knows what Quality is.
>
>then
>
>When it is stated that Quality is unknowable, it 
>stands for a CONCEPTUAL universal meaning.
>Everyone knows what Quality is from their own particular experience.
>
>Quality is "be-ing" thats the universiality of 
>it and where it connects to empiricism.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
>To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:58:18 AM
>Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
>
>
>
>Quality/DQ is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable.
>
>
>At 09:17 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote:
> > is'nt change DQ?
> >
> >
> > DQ is then conventional
> >
> > it is only a word for the experience of change.
> >
> >
> > no more words then Marsha.
> >
> > as you would have it.
> >
> > love Ron
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:11:09 AM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 09:05 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote:
> >
> > > back to this huh...
> > >
> > >
> > > love you marsha
> > >
> > > bye
> >
> > and maybe your projections...
> >
> >
> > love you too ron
> >
> > auf Wiedersehen
> >
> >
> >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:03:27 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
> > >
> > > At 08:55 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote:
> > > > reasoning by virtue of expereince, not deductive rationalization.
> > >
> > > Ron,
> > >
> > > Says you.  I'm reading your words just like 
> you are reading mine.  Neither of us know anything about the others experience.
> > >
> > >
> > > Marsha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:14:15 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
> > > >
> > > > At 07:04 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Ron:
> > > > > Water may be ice it may be steam, 
> change is relative yet consistent. Thinking
> > > > > that if all is change, distinction is 
> impossible leads to thoughts of absolute.
> > > > > Rationalism will do this.
> > > >
> > > > Ron,
> > > >
> > > > Your above statement is a bit of reasoning, is it not?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Marsha
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > ________________________
> > > > > From: Dan Glover <daneglover at hotmail.com>
> > > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:19:57 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello everyone
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------
> > > > > > Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 03:02:41 -0400
> > > > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > > From: marshalz at charter.net
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Greetings Will,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Time and change have a relationship, 
> yes? What does it actually mean
> > > > > > to state that everything is always in a state of
> > > > > > change? Everything! I'm thinking of the water analogy: If
> > > > > > everything is water, and there is nothing that is not water, then
> > > > > > there is no meaning to water, for 
> there is no way of distinguishing a
> > > > > > difference between water and nonwater. Seems if you translate that
> > > > > > into change, then what humans have actually defined as change is
> > > > > > illusion. And if our definition of change is an illusion, how can
> > > > > > anything be conceived of as constant, as in Einstein's 'C', when
> > > > > > everything is changing? Against what is it measured?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Can you untangle this mess between water, change and time?
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Marsha
> > > > >
> > > > > Please excuse me for butting in. Isn't 
> some water better than other water? I read 
> where the space shuttle delivered a 
> urine-reclamation unit to the ISS in order to 
> supply fresh water for the anticipated doubling 
> of the number of crew members in the near future.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I don't know about anyone else, but 
> I'd rather not drink someone else's piss water 
> no matter how well it is recycled. Of course if 
> I was thirsty enough I might change my tune. 
> But nevertheless, I've decided not to visit the 
> ISS anytime in the near future, at least until 
> they get running water installed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmmm, where was I now... I've seemed to 
> have wandered from my original point...
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh yes, some water is better... Let's 
> say reality is water and there is good water 
> and there is bad water and all different manner 
> of water in between. So even though everything 
> is water, there is great meaning between good water and bad water.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think a good analogy is this 
> discussion group. Everyone writes. So the 
> discussion group is all about writing and we 
> could say since everything about the discussion 
> group is writing there is no meaning to it. But 
> there's good writing and bad writing and 
> everything in between. There's great meaning 
> found here even though it's all writing.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think change and time are spokes in 
> the wheel of life. Sometimes the road is smooth 
> and all goes well and everyone is happy and 
> content and we forget all about the spokes as 
> we roll along. Other times though, the road's 
> bumpy and full of ruts, difficult to traverse, 
> and the entire journey is treacherous and hard. 
> And with each bump in the road we're reminded of the spokes we're riding upon.
> > > > >
> > > > > Looking back (since that is all I can 
> do), the difficult journey has always been the 
> one that leads to the best, most memorably 
> creative times in my life (though not the 
> happiest, to be sure), while the easy and safe 
> journey is soon forgotten (though at the time 
> the journey was happening I must have been 
> happier than in the hard times, right?). I just don't know.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Marsha
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 11:24 PM 5/25/2009, you wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>On May 25, 2009, at 11:09:02 AM, "Dan Glover" wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Hello everyone
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>----------------------------------------
> > > > > >>> Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 08:47:17 -0700
> > > > > >>> From: ridgecoyote at gmail.com
> > > > > >>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 12:39 PM, MarshaV wrote:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> 57. In the MOQ time is dependent on experience
> > > > > >>>> independently of matter. Matter is a deduction from
> > > > > >>>> experience.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> So we just toss E=mc2 out the window?
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> I think (unless it can be explained 
> better to me) that the realization of
> > > > > >>> object precedes or arises with the 
> realization of time. Time = change and
> > > > > >>> you can't have "change" without some"thing" changing.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Hi John
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>In the MOQ, matter arises from 
> experience, not the other way around.
> > > > > >>Time arises from experience as well, 
> so it arises independently of matter.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>I am unsure what you mean when you say: So we just toss E=mc2 out
> > > > > >>the window? Equations do not arise 
> from matter. They are ideas. They
> > > > > >>arise from experience independently of matter.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Does this help to better answer your question?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Dan
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Hi all, Willblake2 here,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>I saw E=mc2, thought I'd jump in to 
> see if physics has any bearing on MoQ.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>What this equation symbolizes is that energy and matter are
> > > > > >>identical. We can
> > > > > >>convert one to the other simply using 
> a constant number, that is the speed of
> > > > > >>light times itself. A very large number compared to numbers we are
> > > > > >>used to dealing
> > > > > >>with, but just a number like "2". To simplify, we could say that
> > > > > >>one mass is two energies.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>In the equation is the speed of light, which is distance traveled
> > > > > >>over time. This is
> > > > > >>where time comes into the picture. That is time separates
> > > > > >>distances. Einstein loved
> > > > > >>this kind of metaphysical stuff. Was a mystic in his own way, non
> > > > > >>of this spiritual
> > > > > >>unity stuff, but in trying to sort 
> out the underlying fabric of reality.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>So what is so special about the speed of light? Well for one a
> > > > > >>photon (pure energy)
> > > > > >>zips around at that speed. More 
> importantly, it is thought that the speed is
> > > > > >>constant. That is if you are traveling at half the speed of light,
> > > > > >>and shine a flashlight
> > > > > >>it will appear to leave you at the speed of light, to someone
> > > > > >>standing by the road,
> > > > > >>the light from the flashlight will also leave at the speed of light
> > > > > >>(not 1 + a half speed).
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Einstein got to thinking about this 
> and said that what is happening is that
> > > > > >>time is slowing down the faster you go. Therefore since the speed
> > > > > >>of light should
> > > > > >>be going at one and a half times, 
> time goes slower to make up for this.
> > > > > >>That time slows down with speed has been shown in the lab, and in
> > > > > >>fact satellites
> > > > > >>and GPS systems take this slowing down into account for accuracy.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>OK, nothing new there. Now the limits of speed are 0 (zero) and
> > > > > >>the speed of
> > > > > >>light (SOL). Nothing goes slower than 
> zero, nothing goes faster than SOL.
> > > > > >>Now, at the SOL, time does not move, 
> it stays at 0. At our speed time
> > > > > >>moves along. Lets say, for 
> metaphysical purposes that we switch the limits,
> > > > > >>and say that the speed of light is 
> zero, and we are moving at close to the
> > > > > >>speed of light. This is just using a different reference. It
> > > > > >>makes sense to use
> > > > > >>the speed of light as zero, since time is stopped at that
> > > > > >>point. Therefore, light is
> > > > > >>dead still, and we are rushing 
> through it. Imagine the wind of time blowing
> > > > > >>through your hair, you can feel it. 
> When you are stopped along with light
> > > > > >>there is not wind, no time passing by. I would reference this
> > > > > >>thought experiment
> > > > > >>but I have not found it on the internet yet.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>OK, so we are moving very fast and we 
> experience time. However at every
> > > > > >>instant time does not move. At every 
> instant we are dead still, because
> > > > > >>an instant is so small that no time 
> has passed. This is the Now. If the
> > > > > >>perception of Quality into our 
> consciousness happens during this instant
> > > > > >>we could feel it. We would be going through infinitely short starts
> > > > > >>and stops.
> > > > > >>This would be a physics analogy of 
> how Quality comes before time, in fact
> > > > > >> it is the background upon which time happens.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>An analogy of all this would be that 
> Quality is the white background
> > > > > >>on a page
> > > > > >>in a book, and time is the written words. Although we are jumping
> > > > > >>through time,
> > > > > >>Quality is always there in the 
> background. Time is caused by speed which is
> > > > > >>distance per time. This would mean that for time to appear by
> > > > > >>itself, distance
> > > > > >>would have to dissapear. There is no 
> distance between us and Quality.
> > > > > >>You take out time by stopping and you have just Quality left.
> > > > > >>We could say that light is pure Quality (no time). And once
> > > > > >>again we can worship the Sun.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Hope this made some sense, thanks for your time.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Willblake2
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > .
> > > > > > _____________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, interrelated and
> > > > > > interconnected, inorganic, biological, social and intellectual,
> > > > > > static patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > .
> > > > > > .
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > > .
> > > > _____________
> > > >
> > > > The self is a thought-flow of 
> ever-changing, interrelated and interconnected, 
> inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, 
> static patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality.
> > > >
> > > > .
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > >
> > >
> > > .
> > > _____________
> > >
> > > The self is a thought-flow of 
> ever-changing, interrelated and interconnected, 
> inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, 
> static patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality.
> > >
> > > .
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> >
> >
> > .
> > _____________
> >
> > The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, 
> interrelated and interconnected, inorganic, 
> biological, social and intellectual, static 
> patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality.
> >
> > .
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
>.
>_____________
>
>The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, 
>interrelated and interconnected, inorganic, 
>biological, social and intellectual, static 
>patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality.
>
>.
>.
>
>
>
>Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>
>
>
>
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.
_____________

The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, 
interrelated and interconnected, inorganic, 
biological, social and intellectual, static 
patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality.

.
.

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