[MD] QRE: The 4th. level's two interpretations. Part 2

[MarshaV]

Squonk,

Be assured that you are certain of your point-of-view, but I find it built on premises not in evidence. We approach the split between social and intellectual very differently.  You seem to discriminate between types of patterns, and I put the emphasis between types of processing.

For me, there is a (illlusionary) belief within both the Social Level and the Intellectual Level that reality is comprised of self and objects.  In the Social Level this belief is unconscious, and is a belief, as you have stated, built on imitation/habit of thought/indoctrination. 

In the Intellectual Level the belief that reality is composed of self and objects has become fully conscious and built into the processing.  Within the process of the Intellectual Level there is a concern that the self, through erroneously held beliefs and emotions, contaminate the understanding of the external objects in the world, so the manipulation of the these external objects includes every attempt to diminish the subjective influences. Processes such as justice, H1N1, blood circulation, E = mc2 have been extracted from DQ, given boundaries and converted into entities to be manipulated in a way that explains, makes useful or controls them. 

For me, the Quality Level represents experience without a self or objects; it represents a world very, very different than the Intellectual Level.  Within the Quality Level there is DQ which I call unpatterned experience and others call the undifferentiated flow.  There is also patterned experience where static patterns of value are overlaid onto the undifferentiated flow.  That's all folks.  Quality equals unpatterned experience and patterned experience, OR Quality equals Dynamic Quality and static quality.  


Marsha



-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of mark_maxwell at talktalk.net
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 1:07 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] QRE: The 4th. level's two interpretations. Part 2


Marsha:
You've explained nothing about what democracy symbolizes, and I don't consider that you've explained how it is manipulated, either.

Hi Marsha,
This may be an example of what philosophers call a Universal.
Universals symbolise an essence.
Essences are a process of manipulation of pre-existing symbols.

Marsha:
I am not a mind-reader.

Squonk:
I shall do my best to remember this.

Marsha:
If you think that democracy is an example of a symbol that is not a subject or an object, I do not agree.
What you've done was provide a symbol that represents nothing since you have not explained it or its process. An incomplete premise leads nowhere.

Squonk:
Universals obey their own rules.
Their premises are recognised as common features present in multiple examples.
As such they are neither subjects nor objects.

Marsha:
I think your statement of fallaciousness is wishful thinking, and I think an emerging Quality Level makes clearer the distinction between subject/objects and quality, between thing-in-itself and process, and description and experience.

Squonk:
If there are present within the intellectual level patterns which are neither subjects nor objects then any belief that objects to this may be regarded as fallacious.
　
Marsha:
Acutely? Challenged, but not settled.

Squonk:
Give me credit for not insisting I’m right, even if I am?

Marsha:
Not experience, Squonk, that's in your opinion, backed up by more opinion. I have my opinion too, and it disagrees with yours.

Squonk:
Opinion relies upon experience.

Marsha:
I believe the subject was similarity between the MoQ and the principle of complementarily.

Squonk:
Your objection confirms the discrete nature of intellectual and social patterns.

Marsha:
Since that is not what I suggested, I'll ignore the rest because it is comments on what was misunderstood. The I used for the Social Level was unconscious, that would be without awareness or cognition, unknowingly.

Squonk:
If Cosmological, Geometric and Mathematic symbols are being used in Ancient Greece, ‘without awareness or cognition, unknowingly’ they are still intellectual patterns.

Marsha: Your confusing the som point-of-view and the quality point-of-view demonstrates the need for the Quality Level to be differentiated from the Intellectual s/o Level. Subjects and objects are a case of mistaken identity.

Squonk:
If there are, as I think has been demonstrated, symbols which are neither subjects nor objects, then your position is fallacious.

All the best,
Squonk
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