[MD] Emotions

[Ian Glendinning]

Hi John,

Yes, he (Phaedrus) creates the dichotomy by refusing to play the game.
But Pirsig is not "clueless" about this is he ? That's why it was
worth writing a book about. Books need clear goodies and baddies, and
Pirsig knew how to write a good book.

Plato isn't (never was) all baddie. Pirsig (even Phaedrus) knew this,
and yes the white-horse / black-horse analogy could have been a place
to build an argument. But it's not the argument Pirsig wanted. He
wanted to start somewhere other than this black / white, good / bad,
reason / passion split - find the common ground and divide it up
differently.

(These choices are not perfect. Not only is the naming of the "hero"
Phaedrus a very late editorial decision, but even making it clear
whether Pharedrus or the Narrator was winner or loser was an even
later type-setting choice.)

PS one question - why the word "coincidental" in your point ?

I may have to re-visit the particular Plato story - but I share the
view that when the argument is between reason and passion, that's the
point to break off from "reasonable" argument. Paradoxical and
cyclical as that choice is.

Ian

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 9:39 AM, John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ian,
>
> Emotions are complex things, I agree.    I would like to bring you to a
> particular point in the story of ZAMM.  It was a moment in the book of great
> emotional impact.  At least, I experienced it that way.  It was set up
> almost like a gun fight at high noon only the "stickin' to ma guns, boy" is
> of academic weaponry and the place where academia and Phaedrus part ways is
> very telling, is it not?  Plato's analogy of human consciousness - the dark
> horse and the white horse - reason and passion (emotion) is where Phaedrus
> digs his heels in and stops playing the game.  A good psychoanalyst would
> make hay from such a coincidental refusal, no doubt, but I like the deeper
> truth that nebulousness brings so I won't go there.
>
> Suffice it to say, when Mr. Pirsig analyses either emotions, or social
> relationships, he forfeits some "expert" status, for in his books he
> portrays himself as at least partially clueless in both areas.  Thus my
> hubris in re-examining a few points of MoQ dogma that have been constructed
> around those two issues.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 12:14 AM, Ian Glendinning
> <ian.glendinning at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> John, Squonk,
>> There is no doubt Pirsig suffered psychosis - as we all do a to a
>> greater or lesser extent - there but for the grace ... ;-) To quote
>> fellow ECT patient Roy Harper - "we all need a little paranoia". The
>> trick is to recognize it in onseself - as Pirsig did - writing was
>> (part of) his therapy - "just write something" - so he wrote about his
>> psychosis.
>>
>> Which illustrates the point - 100% social / 100% biological ? Neither,
>> surely.
>> Emotions are complex things. If we talk of an emotion like
>> "intersubjective compassion" that is partly genetically / biologically
>> evolved and partly socially evolved - and in both cases there must be
>> both brain / mind / mental as well as "somatic" embodied elements -
>> and the "object" doesn't have to be another human either.
>>
>> I wish I'd never coined this phrase, but "it's evolututionary
>> psychology ... stupid".
>> Regards
>> Ian
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 5:58 AM,  <mark_maxwell at talktalk.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I think your literary illustration brings out some good points, but I
>> think
>> > ou miss the main one.  Pirsig's tales are the story of intellect
>> wrestling
>> > ith social rejection and in both cases (toward Chris AND Lila) his
>> > ompassion is not something which flows naturally from a social-bound ape
>> as
>> > e read about all the time, but in a forced and unnatural manner of the
>> > ntellectually-bound professor analyzing himself and his own emotional
>> > eactions.  And sharing with us the  insight gleaned, simultaneous with
>> the
>> > ecognition of social incompleteness:  "He never was the type of person
>> that
>> > elates well to other people."  An interesting admission from such a
>> > rofound analyzer of social relations *with* other people.
>> > Near the end of Lila, the dialogue that plays in his own head,
>> > ongratulating himself on his compassion for Lila, a truly compassionate
>> > erson wouldn't realize this.  A compassionate person's compassion flows
>> > ithout realization or need for comment.
>> > Hi John,
>> > A literary illustration is not mine to claim.
>> > Are you suggesting RMP is psychotic?
>> > If so, this may explain characteristics displayed by his foremost
>> disciples.
>> > All the best,
>> > squonk
>> >
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