[MD] suspended in language

[X Acto]

Hi Matt, Steve,


> Matt:
> As I see it, and this lies at the heart of my effort in this
> conversation, the dispute between you and Steve is an
> _internal_ dispute about the best way forward for the
> _common community_ both of you reside in.  Whereas
> it occasionally appears, Marsha, that you do not
> recognize Steve and yourself as in a common struggle
> against someone else (Platonism).  That's why, that
> while ago, I glossed briefly on the feeling of isolation
> in relativism.  I don't think you are alone as it
> sometimes appears you feel.
>
> I think of "relativist" as a similar terror-epithet in the
> philosophical community.  Some, like you Marsha, see
> value in trying to reclaim it.  Others, like Steve, don't.
> But you're in the same community, deciding the best
> way forward.

Steve:
Exactly. I don't think Marsha and I diagree about our epistemic
situation. I think the most significant disagreement here is just what
the word "relativism" means. Personally, I can't see why anyone would
want to call herself that since I pretty much only ever hear the term
used as an epithet--as name-calling used to dismiss the arguments of
another without addressing the argument. It is like being called an
asshole and responding, "yep, I'm an asshole, but being an asshole is
not what people seem to think it is. Being an asshole is actually a
good thing." That would be a tough sell, and I can't see how it would
be worth the effort.

Ron:
A fine point Steve, in fact, it's this sort of preconception that Pirsig hoped
to save Pragmatism from with the MoQ. with a value centered metaphysic
"Good" ceases to be relative and meaningless, the good in MoQ, has 4
distinct heirarchal meanings. It's not "anything you like". thats why the whole
moral order concept was so groundbreaking to the Pragmatic cause.

I can understand how relativism is a counterstance to notions of all forms of absolutism
but here it's so much preaching to the choir, a straw man in our Moq discuss context.
looking for it in every conversation just to get off on knocking him down just gets
in the way of any meaningful conversation on the subject. It just turns into a selfish cathartic
exercise that alienates anyone foolish enough to try to have a discussion about it.