[MD] Problems with Intellectual control of Society

[Arlo Bensinger]

[John quotes Pirsig as quoted by Bo The Wise]
"there is no intellectual requirement that any level dominate the other three."

[Arlo]
Would you take this to mean that there is no moral justification for 
social patterns to dominate biological patterns, say with tribal or 
legal restrictions against beating someone up?

Let me say upfront that I think that "higher level" patterns only 
have moral justification in dominating "lower level" patterns when 
its to contain a threat that would destroy the entire edifice. 
Without "laws" prohibiting murder, a functional society becomes 
almost impossible. Without "intellectual" considerations of "law 
enforcement", society remains trapped underneath the power of 
whatever social pattern (or person) is in charge (i.e., no functional 
intellectual system can develop).

But I do not think such a structure benefits from wanton domination 
of the "lower levels". A society that strives to dominate and control 
every possible biological pattern finds itself eventually like the 
Victorians. An intellect that strives to dominate every aspect of 
society succumbs to a similar malady.

However, when there *is* conflict, it should morally be the higher 
pattern that "wins out". Laws prohibiting "oral sex", for example, 
lost to "intellectual considerations of freedom and law" that decried 
such behavior between consenting adults to be outside the domain of 
social domination. Consider, in the same vein, laws under 
consideration that would restrict or ban "soda".

[John]
As in powerful, mighty, with far-reaching consequences beyond 
intellectual control.

[Arlo]
Just as social interferece with biological behavior had unpredictable 
results, sure, so does intellectual interference with social 
patterns. But we wouldn't say to society, "now stop interfering with 
biology", so why do that with intellect? When, for example, intellect 
decreed "free speech" it likely did not forsee the unintended 
consequences of Anarchist's Cookbooks and an Internet that is 99% 
porn. But "free speech" is a good thing.

[John]
tsk tsk Arlo.  You're  SO sensitive.

[Arlo]
Maybe I should dust off my copy of Iron John.

[John]
In non-mythics terms, my issue is not with intellect, its with intellectualism.

[Arlo]
If you mean by "intellectualism" what I call above the "wanton 
dominance" of social patterns, then I agree with you. In the same 
vein, I'd also reject "societalism", the wanton dominance of 
biological patterns by society.

You know, I think we got some words wrong here. What we think of as 
"socialism" should be "intellectualism" (intellectual control of 
society). "Socialism" should refer to people like the Victorians, 
social dominance of biological (and intellectual) patterns.

Alas.

[John]
Its with intellect as the source of value.  And when this 
intellectualism is placed in control of society, bad things can 
happen and often have.

[Arlo]
Well sure, in the past when "society" was seen as the source of 
value, and this was placed in control of biology, bad things could 
and often did happen (slavery, castes, unequal treatment before the 
"law" (which was whatever the social elites wanted), etc.)

In other words, whatever "pattern" is dominating tends to see itself 
as the "source of value", whether it be intellect or social.

[John]
yay intellectual control of society.  If we could just stop time to 
right now, I imagine we could all celebrate the great success you 
posit.  But every single intellectual achievement has a part in an 
evolving story that has not yet come to an end, and there are 
troubling signs that these achievements are in the end, only going to 
exacerbate a tsunami of destructive changes.

[Arlo]
If the option is to revert to rule by society, the repression of 
intellect, and the domination of the will of social power structures, 
I'm sure I would prefer the unknown coming tsunami.

[John]
Interesting new phenemona observed on talk radio - actual 
advertisements to give free firearms training to listeners- 
interspersed with ads selling "official handguns with laser sights".

[Arlo]
Profiteering off misinformation, fueling the fires of paranoia to 
line one's coffers with the almighty dollar??Geee.... who'd'a thunk it?...

We are approaching the endgame of the xenophobia we've been fueling 
for decades. What else did you, or anyone, expect would happen?

[John]
One little blind spot is all it takes to wreck the whole vehicle.

[Arlo]
Agree. But let's not forget what a train wreck social domination was before.