[MD] A Lila quote, part one.

Wed Oct 7 05:25:33 PDT 2009

ok " experience"
I see no reason to allow levels to determine experience.

----- Original Message ----
From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 8:06:35 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] A Lila quote, part one.

Ron,
  On the Quality level, there is no you.

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of X Acto
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 7:57 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] A Lila quote, part one.

Marsha,
 I see no reason to allow levels to determine anything for me.

----- Original Message ----
From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 7:50:14 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] A Lila quote, part one.

Ron,

On the Intellectual (subject/object) level, reality is not conceived to be a
matter of interpretation; it IS independent self being informed by
independent entities.  On the Quality Level, reality is derived from
immediate experience which is constantly changing, interrelated and
relational.  I used the word conventional to suggest an established static
pattern, of course there will variations because of, as RMP has stated, the
differences in the history of events experienced by the individual.    

It mattered to RMP, because he went on to develop the concept of Quality
into a metaphysics.  It matters to me because it represents a better
world-view.  I'm looking for the intellectual s/o explanation that has the
most value; the experience (quality) needs no justification.  I offer an
explanation that works for me.  I invite you to explain why it doesn't work
for you, or ignore what I've written.

Marsha

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of X Acto
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:51 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] A Lila quote, part one.

If it is a matter of interpretation, would it matter?

----- Original Message ----
From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 3:58:42 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] A Lila quote, part one.

Ron,

Would it be better if I asked to be presented with a conventionally-accepted
example of a non-subject/object, intellectual static pattern of value?  

Marsha

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of MarshaV
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 2:24 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] A Lila quote, part one.

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of X Acto
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 1:18 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk..org
Subject: Re: [MD] A Lila quote, part one.

Ron:
Since objects are illusions, arent all intellectual patterns 
illusions?

Is'nt the question  raised, couched in objective assumption?

Marsha:
No, patterns are conceptual(I'd say), and everchanging, and interrelated,
and relative, and conventional, and not independent inherently objects.  

Ron:
Reification is an intepretation of intellectual patterns
therefore it depends on how one interprets intellectual
patterns.

Marsha:
Yes, and as Krishnamurti has said, "humans have taken a wrong turn" in their
interpretation.  

Ron:
Since a concrete "thing" or physical "object" does not exist,
It most certainly hangs on the interpretation of experience.
Since we are taught to interpret experience as divided into
subjects and objects, and that objects are "real" it would 
seem s/o intellectual patterns are a learned method of 
interpretation. Reification being a consequence of such 
an interpretation for reification is based on the assumption
that objects are "real".

in short     not this, not that

one can not give examples of s/o intellectual patterns
one can not give examples of non s/o intellectual patterns

they are a matter of interpretation.

Marsha:
Easy for us to say: not this, not that...  How long have we been digging at
this?  For me experience (reality) is basically unpatterned experience and
patterned experience.  UNPATTERNED EXPERIENCE and PATTERNED EXPERIENCE.
After that it is all patterns of value (habits, rituals, interpretations,
and those concepts/symbols that intellect has objectified so they can be
manipulated.)  The way that I am talking about these patterns is as if they
are separate objects. I may do it poorly, but it is (s/o)intellectualizing.
This is why for me, the MoQ is an intellectual static pattern of value, but
Quality(unpatterned experience and patterned experience) is a Quality Level
above the Intellectual Level and presently beyond my linguistic description.

When the physicist states that the calculation for particle spin is not
mathematics, but "real", he has separated himself from the process and
reified an equation.  Particle spin has become an object to be manipulated.
That's just one example.  I'm not a physicist, but from what I've heard and
read most objectify these particles as independent, inherently existing
entities. There are some physicists that have philosophical concerns, but
most, even practicing Quantum physics, are scientific realists.  Nouns, in
general are about things.  When a philosopher is speaking of justice and
socialism those words represent abstract, reified theories/things that exist
out there, separate from self.  They are entities/nouns, not interrelated
ever-changing patterns.  

Humbly I submit that all I have just written is subject/object
intellectualizing.  

Marsha  

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