[MD] Problems with Intellectual control of Society

[plattholden at gmail.com]

On 9 Oct 2009 at 15:30, John Carl wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 1:06 PM, <plattholden at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > I don't consider emotions to be either right or wrong.  They are primarily
> > responses to biological quality, are largely uncontrolable by others,  and
> > vary widely from person to person. So I tend not to judge them one way
> > or another: "The MOQ sees emotions as a biological response to quality
> > and not the same thing as quality." (LC, Note 141)
> >
> 
> 
> Ok, this may lose me my plattanoid rep, but I quibble with both you and
> Pirsig.  I quibble a lot.
> 
> Emotions.  Name one.  Name two.  Name fifty...  what do they have in common?
> Let's take the first two to come to mind - Fear and desire.  I fear a
> saber-toothed tiger and I desire a hot fudge sundae.  Surely explainable as
> biological phenemona.
> 
> But what of the actual emotions I experience empirically every day of my
> life?
> 
> 99.3% socially generated.

Causes of individual emotional responses are too numerous to list. But I 
and Pirsig argue that their source is biological. Fear, for example, can 
be "generated" by social patterns (IRS) and/or intellectual patterns (mid-
year exams). You indicate other social patterns that generate biological 
emotions below. 

> Somebody cuts me off in traffic, my wife makes a sarcastic remark, my kids
> come home with good grades, my boss praises my work... the SOCIAL matrix of
> my life is the main generator of all my emotions.  In fact, here is where
> the mind works wonderfully because the emotional truth often presents long
> before the intellect catchs up to what's happening socially.  My biological
> needs rarely enter into my emotional life.  Only when they are threatened!
>  Then they assert themselves big time, but I don't have much emotion when I
> eat my normal lunch and take a crap.  My emotions are responses to social
> relations.
> 
> Sometimes I get really excited about an idea.  That's a good day indeed.
>  But as Ron posits about true 4th level evolutionary DQ,  those times are
> rare.

"Excitement" finds its source in biology. My cat, UTOE, gets very 
excited when a salamander climbs up our porch screen. The basic 
emotions of pleasure and pain are biologically based. My cat purrs when 
happy (your boss praising your work) and hisses when pissed off 
(somebody cuts you off in traffic).
 

> > Behavior that results from emotions is another matter. That is
> > controlable by others and society imposes many strictures to insure that
> > biological emotional behavior doesn't undercut societal bonds.
> >
> 
> Wolves compete viciously when they're young, but when they get older they
> work by rules of politeness designed to keep the fangs from flesh.

Wolf social strictures I presume, the precursor of the social level, though 
my knowledge of wolf pack rules is very limited. 


> As I indicated, the  feeling of compassion when acted upon can do harm
> > as well as good.
> 
> 
> 
> Compassion is a very important human social value, but it is true that
> compassion should be guided by intellect.  Just being compassionate in
> itself is not helpful.  It happens a lot where kids are trained this way, to
> learn to think of oneself and others as *being* compassionate is a selfish
> motive and often ends up causing more trouble than help.
> 
> And the examples are endless!

Agree. The Spanish Inquisition was thought to be "compassionate" by its 
perpetrators. Ditto all coercive tactics justified by appeals to the "public 
good."

> > Perhaps the most egregious historical example is the
> > Spanish Inquisition when heretics were burned at the stake to save their
> > souls from eternal damnation. Other horrific actions taken in the name
> > of a compassionate "public good" are familiar to all of us. For a less
> > bloody but nevertheless telling example is when a children's ball game
> > score is changed to 0-0 out of compassion for the losing team's feelings.
> > Compassion trumps truth.
> >
> >
> Compassion is when I hurt with my child for his pain.  Foolishness is when I
> change the score - instead of teaching how to deal with losing - which is at
> the heart of dealing with life, eh?  Nobody needs to be taught how to deal
> with winning.

Compassion can also sponsor hurtful discipline to save a child from 
greater pain, a social pattern value that's largely ignored by today's 
parents and educators. 

> > When Pirsig wrote the following about suffering perhaps he had in mind
> > that there are consequences from behavior, and that those who are
> > protected from those consequences out of a feeling of compassion are
> > prevented from growing.
> >
> >
> way I look at it is, without ups, you can't have downs.  But you know me,
> Mr. roller coaster simpleton.
> 
> 
> 
> > "That's why the absence of suffering last night seemed so ominous and
> > her change to what looked like suffering today gave Phaedrus a feeling
> > she was getting better. If you eliminate suffering from this world you
> > eliminate life." (Lila, 29)
> >
> > A long answer I'm afraid. And as always, I could be wrong.
> >
> > Platt
> >
> >
> 
> Fear not, Platt; nor retract, equivocate  or apologize.  Get it done and let
> the bastards howl, I say.
> 
> Howl.

I say "I could be wrong" once in awhile to let you and others know that I 
detest the arrogance of some who think they know what's good for 
others and are willing to put my money where their mouths are.