[MD] Problems with Intellectual control of Society

[plattholden at gmail.com]

On 12 Oct 2009 at 8:54, John Carl wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 3:54 PM, <plattholden at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 11 Oct 2009 at 10:47, John Carl wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 9:30 AM, <plattholden at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > John]
> > > > >
> > > > > Then you and Pirsig are gonna have to explain to me the difference
> > > > between
> > > > > "source" and "cause".  You might as well say intellectual responses
> > are
> > > > > biological because they reside in a brain.
> > > >
> > > > Platt
> > > > Using that logic you might as well say intellectual responses are
> > > > inorganic because they depend on electrical impulses.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Right!  You get my point then.  That which we posit as a "source" is not
> > the
> > > stuff making up the pattern, but the higher thought which generates the
> > > patterns out of stuff.  Biology is not the source of emotions.
> >
> > If you're saying thought creates patterns I agree. But then that's not
> > saying much. That's what thought does. So your conclusion hardly
> > follows.
> >
> >
> 
> I'm saying higher guiding DQ creates the lower patterns on every level.
>  Biology does not create emotions, emotions create biology - when the
> emotion of lust overtakes me, procreation occurs.  fer instance.

Platt
I'm saying DQ created the biological level and that procreation is a 
biological value. 

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > Well, in Pirsig's scheme of four static value pattern levels plus DQ
> > everything supposedly has a "home." He put emotions in the biological
> > level. I find it "useful" to put them there, too. Also I think responses to
> > "abstract and intellectual joys of aesthetic appreciation" are not
> > emotional but indicators in pure experience that DQ is present.
> >
> 
> 
> I would postulate that responses *to* "abstract and intellectual joys of
> aesthetic appreciation" are intellectual and objective,  while responses *of
> * "abstract and intellectual joys of aesthetic appreciation" are emotional
> and fundamental.
> 
> I would postulate that emotions then are a "higher" (closer to DQ) form of
> mentation.  The classic first divide of experienced reality - the
> romantic/classic split.
> 
> 
> Who cares what Pirsig says?
> 
> Just kidding.  We all care what Pirsig says/said.  But...
> 
> Thought evolves.  It's supposed to.  What Pirsig said yesterday cannot
> control what Pirsig says tomorrow or the guy would by trapped by his own
> system and the system as given isn't a fundamentally static system.
> 
> I look at a lot of the MoQ as developed out of Lila and Lila's Child as
> examples of how to use the insight of the fundamental basis of reality being
> Quality, not commandments carved in stone which we all have to memorize and
> repeat.  Agreed?

Platt
Agreed. But if you want to deviate from the MOQ and expect others to 
follow your lead, you have to convince them your way is better than 
Pirsig's. So far I for one am not convinced. 

> 
> This is important.  A student who simply replicates the knowledge of the
> teacher, cuts the teacher's virtue in half - a Buddhist maxim with which you
> may be familiar.  In order for a teacher's virtue to accrue, the student
> should surpass the teacher.
> 
> A key insight that might have helped dmb out a bit...

Platt
DMB needed a lot of help. 

> 
> 
> 
> >
> > I simply refer to other collections of things as groups. Societies I
> > reserve
> > for human groups. Makes sense to me given Pirsig's static levels.
> >
> >
> But a group as a number of things is far different than an interrelated and
> interacting number of biological beings evolving rules and codes for their
> relationships.    Social rules transcend biological reality, and thus
> qualify as a new way of patterning.   The herd circling to protect the young
> is more than cells organizing themselves - it's living beings relating to
> each other and to the external threat according to socially established
> rules.    And if you take humans out of their complicated world and watch
> them in small groups in nature, they are not that much different from the
> animals.

Platt
When animals form governments with constitutions and elected 
representatives I will gladly include them in the social level. Behavior of 
animals in herds is instinctive and thus a biological level pattern. 


> 
> 
> 
> >
> > > I'd say Bo is right.  I'm confused.  Confusion is suffering.  Suffering
> > is
> > > good.  Suffering brings about evolution.
> >
> > Agree. He who isn't confused lacks humility.
> >
> 
> 
> True!  I feel good about being humble, and bad about being confused.  This
> insight you offer helps me to make the jump from confusion to humility more
> quickly.  Which is good - it eases suffering - which is bad - easing of
> suffering engenders complacency - which is confusing - which keeps me humble
> - back to good again.  Whew.  When can I get off this roller coaster?
> 
> Hopefully, not yet.
 
Platt
Please don't jump. 



> 
> >
> >
> > > Here is the essence of my confusion,  you could take most of what has
> > been
> > > said about Quality, and apply it to "positive feeling".  The apprehension
> > of
> > > Quality as I experience it is a feeling of "good" - an emotion.  When I
> > get
> > > praise for something, that good feeling is the reinforcing agent of
> > > intellectual evolution which encourages the intellectual behavior that
> > > generated the praise.
> >
> > I also think of "bad" as the negative side of Quality, i.e., low Quality.
> > But
> > the presence of good, bad or neutral comes before any feeling, thought,
> > or expression of any kind. It is the core of immediate experience.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand and agree.  But I think what I'm saying is that my first
> reaction to this core of immediate experience is always some emotional
> reaction that I subsequently analyze.   That is, all intellectual thought
> has an emotional foundation - I have to care or I wouldn't even bother
> thinking.  Caring is fundamental to Quality and caring is an emotion.

Platt
Caring only comes after direct experience. You care about surviving, a 
biological value. Humans have to think to survive (except children and 
welfare recipients.) But caring about Quality, ah, that's humanity's Holy 
Grail. 


> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Whether either or us is right or wrong is less important that the pleasure
> > I feel in exchanging thoughts no matter from whence such pleasure
> > emanates.:-)
> >
> >
> 
> Well said, Platt.  I'm gonna count that one as a plattaboy.

Platt
Thanks. Taking a page from your playbook, things you say that I like will 
henceforth be "JCisms."