[MD] Problems with Intellectual control of Society

[skutvik at online.no]

Andre, Arlo, All

13 Oct.:

Arlo said:
> > I am disappointed to see this. Let me remind you (as if it had not
> > been said already), that Pirsig himself voiced the strongest support
> > possible for DMB here, saying in effect that it was DMB who most
> > accurately represented his own intended views. You can, of course, stand
> > and disagree with Pirsig (many do), but you can not argue that DMB did
> > not represent Pirsig's ideas. Furthermore, such dismissive attitudes
> > towards someone who devoted a hell of lot of time to argue FOR the MOQ,
> > and FOR Pirsig, is kinda pathetic in a forum supposedly devoted to
> > discussing Pirsig's ideas.

Andre commented:
> I agree totally with what you say here Arlo. I am sorry to say that I
> have lost my own gumption paticipating in this forum. Pirsig is not
> the Pirsig any more I identify with... and which made me join this
> discussion.

The point is, what Andre points to, that Pirsig is an enigma. The 
Phaedrus of ZAMM who I feel had the original Quality Idea (that set 
him apart from everything else by his vision that the present 
mind/matter "metaphysics" is a stage - called intellect - of a still greater 
scheme) was replaced by the LILA author who wavered between the 
original vision and a more conventional mind/matterish view of 
"intellect" a mind where ideas reside, SOM one idea, the MOQ 
another.

Still more enigmas. The ZAMM author was in fact the same post-
hospital Pirsig who wrote LILA  only - as I understand it -  a few years 
older. ZAMM was written in the late sixties/early seventies and 
published in 1974 while Lila was started immediately afterwards. Why 
this marked change? And the still more "conventionality" in "Lila's 
Child"?      But then the sudden "Phaedrus" appearance in the Paul 
Turner letter where he rejected the mind-intellect, but regrettably - to 
keep his "enigmatism" -  introduced the "language-intellect" and the 
non-S/O oriental ditto. .    

> I sense Bodvar has his point. It makes a lot of sense.
> Sometimes I would just want to ask Mr. Pirsig to waylay or acknowledge
> what Bodvar is on about.
 
> Mr. Pirsig has made his reply and nothing since has been forthcoming.
> This means he sticks to his guns and Bodvar is somehow mistaken in his
> interpretation of the MoQ. My simple question is: what has Mr. Pirsig
> to lose if and when he admits to Bodvar's correction or simply
> reinforces Bodvar's misreading of the MOQ ( and explains this in clear
> unequivocal terms).

Yes, you may wish for such a clear stand, but - well - nothing ill said 
about DMB  I think he won Pirsig's "love" by his comparing Pirsig's 
ordeal with some impressive mythological counterpart. And that I lost it 
by embarrassing him. For instance the part in the Paul letter where 
Pirsig refers to the "Old Books" not displaying any intellectual value 
and it being equally clear that they display no SOM. Then me pointing 
this out and him starting on explaining it away by a SOM displayed in 
"beware of Crocs" and - further - that the MOQ can "sail away" without 
the SOM (i.e. explaining it in the light of the MOQ. But this is plain 
impossible, a new theory worth its pay must "contain" the former in the 
sense of explain why/how it could reign, like Newton's explains how 
the Greek Physics vas valid from their incomplete premises.   

> Now some may say: He has already done that!. I'd say well ..do it
> again). I admit, and this is a personal thing, but it affects loads of
> people here on this discuss. It absorbs so much energy and confuses so
> much of what Mr Pirsig has given to us. Perhaps Anthony can assist as
> intermediary. I think this is important.

Worth a try, but I'm afraid Anthony is committed. 

> Above all: my conviction is: Love is all. The interference is the idea
> that all is mine, all is property, all is government, all is
> possession, all is religion, all is my own, all is hunger, all is
> friendship, all is all is good, all  is music, all is fun, all is
> evil'............. all is whatever you think is 
 
> I will lay low for awhile. Time for another adventure within a system
> despised by Platt and Ham ( any others?). You do not know what it is
> like my fellow Beings ...to live and work in China!!

Give us a report from time to time.

Best wishes and thanks. 

Bodvar